Low F# Tuning

[bennerman]

So I am making a 5 string bass. The intention is to be able to play a both F#BEAD and BEADG tuning (don't worry about nuts and the bridge, I have that figured out). Problem, I am told I need a 38" scale to keep the F# from flopping. Couple of problems:
1. Longer scale = more tension, right? I don't want to have to worry about putting in reinforcements.
2. I don't want to have to shop for specialty strings more than I have to (i.e. nothing besides the F# string), so I would really prefer to keep it 35" at the most.

So if I were to do a 34 or 35" scale bass, what guage would you recommend for all 6 strings?

EDIT: I don't mean I will use the same 5 strings for both tunings. I will buy 6 strings, and when I want to switch to standard, I will change all the strings

 

[thedarkoceans]

so man.for a decent low F you have to get a long scale like 38",and good pickups,or it will be fucking muddy.you should try to make a 2 truss rod neck.my suggestion is JUMBO FRETS.do it.then you should buy 4 string in the normal way,like d'addario or elixir or whatever.and a circle k string for low F.

take care,good luck.
TDO.

 

[knuckle_head]

You don't need a 38" scale to pull off a solid F# - what scale length would you prefer?

2" is about a half step, and a .190 is a decent tight F# for 34/35" scale length. At 36" you can go to .182 with similar tension. 38" will let you get away with .174. Go to 40" and you can do a .166.

These sets will have as much tension as a standard 5 string and won't require exceptional build rigors.

 

[ZEBOV]

Just a few days ago, I ordered a set of .174 .130 .098 .073 .055 gauges for a cheap 34" scale bass. http://circlekstrings.com/CKSIMAGES/CircleKtensionChart.pdf
I took a good look at that tension chart before ordering. When I get the strings, I'll get my bass set up for them, try it out on my amp, and then make a video. It's likely that it will be somewhat muddy simply because of the cheap stock pickups on my bass, but I'll know if's it's muddier or cleaner than before. My amp is perfect though.

 

[ixlramp]

Some F# strings of the past have been too floppy at 34" or 35" but there's more choice of subcontra strings now. You can pick the exact gauge for the optimum tension for any scale and any note at Circle K Strings: Circle K Strings - Single Strings - All tensions,scales, gauges
Use the tension chart ZEBOV linked to.
They also sell balanced tension sets (strings at equal tension) in finely graded gauges for any tension you desire. Here's the choice of 6 string sets: Circle K Strings - Standard Balanced 6 Strings
A good method for choosing is to pick the set with your preferred gauge of E string.

There are many bassists who successfully tune much lower than F# on a 34"/35" bass. Although extra scale helps, it's not essential, with the right string you can get excellent tone. In the world of ERB, F# is no longer considered particularly low

If you use another brand for the top 5 strings, 130 95 70 50 35 plus a Circle K 174. This makes a light balanced tension set.

 

[Explorer]

Problem, I am told I need a 38" scale to keep the F# from flopping.

As you note, the problem is that you've been told something which some don't find to be true in practice.

Conklin Groove Tools basses have a 34" scale length and use a .165 for the low F# and .195 for the low C#. I trust Conklin more than whoever is telling you that.

 

[knuckle_head]

As you note, the problem is that you've been told something which some don't find to be true in practice.

Conklin Groove Tools basses have a 34" scale length and use a .165 for the low F# and .195 for the low C#. I trust Conklin more than whoever is telling you that.

mod edit: just a note, the poster is associated with Circle K strings and the method he states is superior is the way his company makes strings

There is benefit to scale length - and I've found it beneficial and worthwhile embracing it.

Best preliminary benefit is using three wrap B strings which far and away have better voices than the preponderance of four wrap strings. Most manufacturers use four wraps at or just beyond .125 which is a woefully light B string gauge.

Same holds true with the larger gauges - the less metal and the fewer wraps you need to get where you're going the better your tone is going to be.

Yes you can indeed get there on a 34" - but only within the last 2 years or so have there been any truly viable ways to get beyond A below B.

While there are those who embrace .195 for C#, I contend that it is barely appropriate for 20 Hz E. And when brought to traditional tension presents confounding issues that most bass players wouldn't be willing to live with.

 

[Explorer]

Conklins are acknowledged as solid basses on TalkBass. I understand that you, as the manufacturer of Circle K Strings, would have opinions which are demonstrated by your choices in string manufacturing.

I agree that you would have some insight into this... in the same way that TalkBass members might also. I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion on TalkBass, where there is a deeper and wider experience base of working bassists. I'll keep an eye open for it when it starts up.

To the OP: I recommend you do some reading on this, rather than take any one individual's comments as the final word.

 

[knuckle_head]

mod edit: just a note, the poster is associated with Circle K strings and the method he states is superior is the way his company makes strings

This also comes by virtue of my being a bass builder - and I build Knuckle Guitar Works basses FWIW

 

[knuckle_head]

Conklins are acknowledged as solid basses on TalkBass. I understand that you, as the manufacturer of Circle K Strings, would have opinions which are demonstrated by your choices in string manufacturing.

I agree that you would have some insight into this... in the same way that TalkBass members might also. I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion on TalkBass, where there is a deeper and wider experience base of working bassists. I'll keep an eye open for it when it starts up.

To the OP: I recommend you do some reading on this, rather than take any one individual's comments as the final word.

Conklins enjoy a well deserved reputation - I have played a few, including Stew McKinsey's 10 featured in another active thread on this board.

Know, too, that Conklin and I were in negotiations to have me manufacture their Sidewinder strings. We know one another. Sadly, as I am a small guy in the industry, I was too expensive to provide them enough of a profit margin.

If you do a search on Talkbass (and you should) you'll find I have a 10 year history there of encouraging exploration of low tunings. Back then there was only one way to do it - SIT. Today you have Warwick Black Labels, Labella subcontra strings (which I helped develop), Octave 4 Plus, myself, and perhaps others - I hope there are others.

The OP suggested he wanted to pursue longer scale lengths - and I hope he is still considering it. There are great benefits to doing this, and I know this as I build basses as well. Mine start at 36" and go to 39.55" speaking lengths. I hope within the next 14 to 18 months to have a 55" scale instrument that will allow F# tuning utilizing a .130 string - I have no idea if/how well it will work, but my experience suggests there are some interesting things to be found in doing it.

Lots of ways for bennerman (the OP) to skin his cat - and I hope I am only one of his resources . . .

 

[bennerman]

Well I was hoping not to build a long scale, because my current bass is 34" scale, and I want to base it off of that. I don't know the various fret positions and such on a longer scale bass. Though as a bass maker, I was wondering if you would be willing to help me with that.

EDIT: Can I put it together fretless, test all of the notes with a tuner, and then mark them as I go along?

 

[knuckle_head]

Well I was hoping not to build a long scale, because my current bass is 34" scale, and I want to base it off of that. I don't know the various fret positions and such on a longer scale bass. Though as a bass maker, I was wondering if you would be willing to help me with that.

There is an awesome StewMac resource;

Fret Calculator

 

[bennerman]

There is an awesome StewMac resource;

Fret Calculator

Alright guys, here's the plan for the bass:

-40" Scale, 24 Frets
-Ebony Fretboard
-5 piece neck, layered as "Maple, Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood, Maple" (i.e. maple is the two outer pieces, rosewood are the two inner stripes, and ebony is the center stripe).
-Koa Body, shaped like Les Claypool's rainbow bass (with the scroll).
-4 string, F#BEA
-Bone or Deer Antler nut.
-Soap bar pickups (Optimistically EMGs or Q-Tuners with a pickup cover, but more realistically whatever I can find)
-Neck Thru construction
-Strung through construction (and knuckle, can you recommend a bridge that will fit the F#?)

Is a neck like this going to need a dual trussrod or reinforcements? I assume the ebony fretboard and the ebony strip in the neck are going to lend some stability anyway.

Is there anything else I need to worry about?

EDIT: may be 20 frets, because the only ebony fretboards in my price range go up to 26" on a 4 string, 28" on a 5 string (I may get a 5 string anyway and trim it a little, because with the F#, I may need a wider one anyway)

 

[knuckle_head]

-Strung through construction (and knuckle, can you recommend a bridge that will fit the F#?)

Any top loading bridge will work - brass Hipshots are good. I'm fond of the A style but the D style is kinda cool.

Is a neck like this going to need a dual trussrod or reinforcements? I assume the ebony fretboard and the ebony strip in the neck are going to lend some stability anyway.

A single truss rod will do fine. LMI has done custom length rods for me in the past, and it would be worth it to see if they can do one for you that is 4 to 5 inches longer than their standard rod. Know how many frets you want before you ask them to be sure it will fit under the board you get.

Is there anything else I need to worry about?

EDIT: may be 20 frets, because the only ebony fretboards in my price range go up to 26" on a 4 string, 28" on a 5 string (I may get a 5 string anyway and trim it a little, because with the F#, I may need a wider one anyway)

Will you slot this yourself? Having the extra width is a good idea.

 

[bennerman]

Any top loading bridge will work - brass Hipshots are good. I'm fond of the A style but the D style is kinda cool.


A single truss rod will do fine. LMI has done custom length rods for me in the past, and it would be worth it to see if they can do one for you that is 4 to 5 inches longer than their standard rod. Know how many frets you want before you ask them to be sure it will fit under the board you get.


Will you slot this yourself? Having the extra width is a good idea.

I am going to be doing it myself. I am 17 and don't have a job. Can't afford to pay anyone else.

Although, my grandfather is a retired carpenter, and my dad used to be a contractor (specializing in roofing, but he has emphysema, so can't do it anymore). My dad is definitely going to help with it, and he is going to call my grandpa soon to ask if he will help.

 

[knuckle_head]

I am going to be doing it myself. I am 17 and don't have a job. Can't afford to pay anyone else.

Although, my grandfather is a retired carpenter, and my dad used to be a contractor (specializing in roofing, but he has emphysema, so can't do it anymore). My dad is definitely going to help with it, and he is going to call my grandpa soon to ask if he will help.

My rods measure about 26" for my Quakes - you can make-shift a Fender style tension rod pretty simply and very cheaply. That you're building a very rigid neck will help alot.

There are very cheap single string bridge assemblies to be had - worth it if you want to compensate for string spacing at the bridge.

 

[bennerman]

My rods measure about 26" for my Quakes - you can make-shift a Fender style tension rod pretty simply and very cheaply. That you're building a very rigid neck will help alot.

There are very cheap single string bridge assemblies to be had - worth it if you want to compensate for string spacing at the bridge.

I wonder, will these work?

$11.41 Free Ship Set of 4 Single String Bass Bridges Gold-plated - Wholesale US$10.47

I also have a question. I have had my bass for 6 months and never once adjusted the truss rod. it is with that said that I ask: do I even need one? Wouldn't steel or graphite reinforcements do the same job that a non-adjustable truss rod would do?

 

[bennerman]

I know this is sorta off topic, but I am turning my current bass fretless, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what strings Les is using on this song?


If I recall, that bass has a crapload of ebony in it, so that could contribute

 

[knuckle_head]

I wonder, will these work?

$11.41 Free Ship Set of 4 Single String Bass Bridges Gold-plated - Wholesale US$10.47

I also have a question. I have had my bass for 6 months and never once adjusted the truss rod. it is with that said that I ask: do I even need one? Wouldn't steel or graphite reinforcements do the same job that a non-adjustable truss rod would do?

These are exactly the bridges I hoped you'd find.

I have carbon in my necks and I need the truss rod. You will too. It is worth putting carbon in if you can - it's better than steel and lighter. Strings vary even set to set a little bit, and necks move with the seasons.

You might want to be careful using ebony as stringers in your neck. I stopped using it as fret board material because it moves so much with humidity changes. But then, I am in Seattle after all.

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

I am going to be doing it myself. I am 17 and don't have a job. Can't afford to pay anyone else.

Although, my grandfather is a retired carpenter, and my dad used to be a contractor (specializing in roofing, but he has emphysema, so can't do it anymore). My dad is definitely going to help with it, and he is going to call my grandpa soon to ask if he will help.

Just FYI it will be cheaper buy something than make it. Especially if you got a job and worked for all the hours of research you would have put into making the bass, and that doesn't even account for making the instrument.