Marxism discussion thread
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wat
Well-Known Member
Neither the first or the last time someone came up with a nice-sounding name for straight up theft.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
This all hinges on a very in-the-box view of ownership from a capitalistic viewpoint. You think of theft as taking something from someone who earned it, but that basically assumes that society has a fair system of assessing that value/earn-ership. There are plenty of people who earn more based on their position than on the value of their actions (some may even be President!). So taking from these people, eh, hard for me to consider it stealing if someone's making $3,000 an hour to oversee some trust or carry on a family business. I'm not super pro-communism, but there's obviously a lot of wealth accumulating into increasingly fewer hands, and I think there are very few humans that do things that are of super high value (in terms of creating good in the world) compared to others.
One thing I like about Japan is that there's a lot more balance in employee salary. In the USA your CEO will make like 5000x an average worker, while in Japan that figure is often a bit closer to 5-10x. Just a bit better for the society overall if people are treated a more fair with respect to one another.
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Get the fuck out of here with that un-American bullshit.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Apologies #alwaysbeclosing
wat
Well-Known Member
There are two kinds of people.
1. Those who believe people are entitled to their own money and should have the freedom to use it as they wish
2. Marxists
1. Those who believe people are entitled to their own money and should have the freedom to use it as they wish
2. Marxists
AngstRiddenDreams
Filthy Casual
Adam Of Angels
The GAS Man
There simply is no way to objectively determine how wealth should be distributed, and what each must do to in order to get their fair share. But, we value nothing more than individual freedom, and so agreement between individuals is maybe the fairest means possible.
Drew
Forum MVP
StevenC
Needs a hobby
I thought there were 10 kinds of people.
Those who understand binary and those who don't.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
What about the other 1000 people?
StevenC
Needs a hobby
The other four thousand and ninety six people aren't my problem.
Drew
Forum MVP
This thread has taken a turn for the better. 
zappatton2
Well-Known Member
As a statistician by trade, I wholeheartedly agree!!This thread has taken a turn for the better.
wat
Well-Known Member
You either believe in freedom or you dont
If you don't, you're probably a Marxist
If you don't, you're probably a Marxist
kamello
DESU METARU!
can't speak on behalf of the US standart of living, but here in Chile we are one of the most liberal economies in the world, and one of the strongest economies in America ...
...and it's fucking shit.
we have the highest GDP Per capita in latin america, yet we are the second most inequal country in the OECD, with of the lowest minimum wages,
Our healthcare? GREAT! if you can pay it
Our education? decent if you can pay it, terrible if you can't. We have the second highest prices in education, just behind the US, but with the low wages, it feels even worse (for example, one month of my career is about 2.5 times what I can make working 45 hours a week )
so yeah, I believe in freedom, but freedom without equality, is just privilege
...and it's fucking shit.
we have the highest GDP Per capita in latin america, yet we are the second most inequal country in the OECD, with of the lowest minimum wages,
Our healthcare? GREAT! if you can pay it
Our education? decent if you can pay it, terrible if you can't. We have the second highest prices in education, just behind the US, but with the low wages, it feels even worse (for example, one month of my career is about 2.5 times what I can make working 45 hours a week )
so yeah, I believe in freedom, but freedom without equality, is just privilege
AngstRiddenDreams
Filthy Casual
GuitarBizarre
Listen to physics.
Don't forget that the Marxist definition of socialism/communism ultimately requires the dissolution of the machinery of state, which is clearly a totally anti-freedom idea.
kamello
DESU METARU!
now, adding a bit more to the topic, instead of just rambling from my guts; I think marxism should be re-thinked in the XXI Century context. Now we don't see exploitation in an absolute way as Marx did see around the XIX Century, by absolute; Marx defines it as impoverishment, or imposibility of enrichment of the working class. Marx also predicted that this dynamic wouldn't stay for too long and described the idea of relative exploitation (what we currently see) Workers nowdays definitely have it way, waaaay better than what it was around just mere decades ago, but also the levels of concentration of wealthness was something that just wasn't possible with the market and production dynamics of the XIX century, so now; instead of having a poor and exploited working class without much access to the goods that himself helped to produce; now we have an exploited middle class, with access to the market (thanks to credit) and a far, far more wealthy bourgeoisie.
What's the problem with this? that the modernization in production techniques and the abundance of wealth haven't traslated into more justice in the distribution of wealth
Last year I attended to some Marxism classes by a renowed Chilean profesor, and his proposition of a Hegelian-Marxism was the best answer I got for this question of "how can we understand and implement marxism in the XXI century"
If anyone is interested, here are some papers that tackles that question (point 4 being the most relevant)
https://www.cperezs.org/en/proposal-of-a-hegelian-marxism/text.html#4._The_communist_horizon
spoiler: it doesn't involve "stealing" the property, but reducing it's importance little by little. A concept that was devoloped -curiously- by a liberal; J.M. Keynes
What's the problem with this? that the modernization in production techniques and the abundance of wealth haven't traslated into more justice in the distribution of wealth
Last year I attended to some Marxism classes by a renowed Chilean profesor, and his proposition of a Hegelian-Marxism was the best answer I got for this question of "how can we understand and implement marxism in the XXI century"
If anyone is interested, here are some papers that tackles that question (point 4 being the most relevant)
https://www.cperezs.org/en/proposal-of-a-hegelian-marxism/text.html#4._The_communist_horizon
spoiler: it doesn't involve "stealing" the property, but reducing it's importance little by little. A concept that was devoloped -curiously- by a liberal; J.M. Keynes
