Microtonal Fretted Instruments?

[Xodus]

Inspired by this.

1.What would be the purpose of this type of fret? The poster who owns this guitar mentions chromatics and intervals[/URL], but I don't see how that would work.


2.Would the extra note given be a note not part of the twelve notes of Western music?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I was not sure where to put it.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Microtonal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bostjan]

Inspired by this.

1.What would be the purpose of this type of fret? The poster who owns this guitar mentions chromatics and intervals, but I don't see how that would work.

There are intervals outside of the 12-tone world, used extensively in arabic music, but also found in baroque Dutch music and experimental western music, such as the neutral third, neutral seventh, harmonic seventh, etc., which cannot even begin to be appoximated with 12-EDO.

2.Would the extra note given be a note not part of the twelve notes of Western music?

Correct.

In fact, the 12 notes in an octave on the guitar are not even the same as the notes in Western music theory, but most of them are close enough.

If you think about it, there are actually more than 12 notes in Western theory:

1. unison
2. minor second
3. major second
4. minor third
5. major third
6. perfect fourth
7. augmented fourth
(the tritone we have on guitar is often used to approximate the aug4 and dim5, but is actually neither. It is closest to the tritone of African traditional music, and thus lends itself well to blues music and its derivatives)
8. diminished fifth
9. perfect fifth
10. augmented fifth
11. minor sixth
12. major sixth
13. harmonic seventh
14. diminished seventh
15. minor seventh
16. major seventh
and finally, the octave, which takes us back to the root.

These tones are all unique frequency ratios, but we obviously do not have 16 frets in an octave on the guitar. The reason someone doesn't just magically move the frets around is because these ratios are only valid in one key. If you move to a second key, say, based off of the perfect fifth, then you would need fifteen more frets for that key, and then fiteen more for the fifth of the fifth and so on, until you had an infinite number of frets.

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I was not sure where to put it.

I cannot speak for the mods. Personally, I'm glad you asked.

 

[ellengtrgrl]

There are several sites devoted to microtonal guitar:

http://www.microtonalguitar.com/

John Catler, is one if its biggest proponents, via his band JC And The Microtones, and the microtone fretted guitars he sells on his website.

Freenote Music

I've been interested one of these for the past several months (new musical experiences, keep me from getting bored musically), but they're kind of pricey, for what is essentially a re-necked guitar. Still, they are pretty cool, and if the prices came down, I might consider getting one.

Here's some demos of John's microtonal guitars

[YouTubevid]O2eukIoSsKM[/YouTubevid]

 

[Customisbetter]

I have yet to a see a 24 fret octave guitar with regular fret spacing cut in half. Maybe I'll make one.

 

[bostjan]

Ellen,

Jon Catler is one of the pioneers of the microtonal electric guitar. His tuning system is quite different from the status quo even among microtonal guitarists.

You can also check out Neil Haverstick for examples of 19-EDO, 31-EDO, and 34-EDO. He has some compositions which sound very nice, and you may hardly be able to tell that there is anything microtonal going on unless you pay close attention to the tuning. He also has some "out" stuff, though.

I have a freenote 19-EDO superstrat and it plays very well. The body is fairly cheap, but I do not feel that the quality of the body is really as important as the quality of the neck and electronics. Plus, it is the same quality of wood you would get on a Squire Strat, just with better workmanship.

The beauty of 19-EDO, is that you can play one blindfolded and it sounds only moderately different from standard tuning. Once you get the hang of jamming some covers on it, it's pretty easy to start writing.

On more odd tunings, like 22-EDO, there are fewer analogies with standard tuning (12-EDO), which makes it more difficult to get to the stage where you can compose deliberately, but that adds more to the intrigue and lends itself more to quantum leaps in composition technique.

24-EDO Strat

Of the many options with fret spacing that small, 24-EDO tends not to be popular, because both 19-EDO and 22-EDO offer closer approximations to consonant intervals, and 31-EDO or 34-EDO take you extremely close to having all scale intervals closer to just tuning, and also offer many good approximations to non-western intervals.

Deliberate dissonance can be better achieved through 16-EDO, or 17-EDO if you want to keep good fifths, or pretty much anything that distances itself from other accepted systems of tuning.

Here is a nine string 16-EDO guitar by sword guitars:

 

[Xodus]

Thanks for the responses guys, it really helped clear up my question. Do any of you have experience with Sword Guitars?

 

[anne]

I have yet to a see a 24 fret octave guitar with regular fret spacing cut in half. Maybe I'll make one.

Well, there is M.A.N. ... lol :|

 

[Customisbetter]

^I thought his and his bassist had 27 frets per octave...

 

[Xodus]

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but could you elaborate on the concepts of the various EDOs? As I understand it, X EDO has X notes in an octave. How would this affect the tonality? Is it primarily based on the intervals given to you? I am mainly interested in the more dissonant EDOs. If you could give any more information, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dpm]

I've got a 24 tone/octave partly made for myself, but it's on hold right now until I've caught up with orders (got sick early in the year and everything has fallen behind ). I'm trying a new fretboard radius concept on this one too - flat on the treble side and compound radius on the bass. It's something that I couldn't do before moving to CNC. I think it will end up feeling very nice but I have to get through a few more jobs before I find out

 

[Winspear]

Sorry if I'm missing something here...I've read through the thread and don't really understand.
How comes the chords played in that video sound better than the chords with normal notes that I'm used to?

 

[dpm]

Sorry if I'm missing something here...I've read through the thread and don't really understand.
How comes the chords played in that video sound better than the chords with normal notes that I'm used to?

In a nutshell... 12 tone equal temperament was developed as a way to keep things sounding 'OK' in different keys. No intervals will be perfectly in tune but it's more or less in tune and relatively easy to develop playable instruments for, and allows for compositions with key changes. Increasing the number of available notes per octave can make certain intervals more accurate (and sometimes less accurate). It's all a compromise.

 

[bostjan]

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but could you elaborate on the concepts of the various EDOs? As I understand it, X EDO has X notes in an octave. How would this affect the tonality? Is it primarily based on the intervals given to you? I am mainly interested in the more dissonant EDOs. If you could give any more information, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDO stands for Equally Divided Octave.

By having the octave split into equal pieces, it is guaranteed that:

1) The octave will be perfectly in tune, and
2) Each of the X keys will intonate exactly the same.

Alternatives to EDO include, but are not limited to:

a) Just Tuning - All intervals are perfect ratios in one key. Playing in other keys will sound very dissonant.
c) Pythagorean Tuning - All of the octave and fifths will be perfectly in tune in all keys, except whichever the last one is to tune. The last tuned fifth sounds terribly dissonant and is called "wolf fifth."
c) Equal divisions of some other interval than octave, such as twelfth (octave + fifth). These make one interval perfect, at the sacrifice of others and allow perfect key transpositions.

The number of equal divisions in equal divisions and the limit on the ratios used in just tuning can be endlessly redeveloped.

For instance, just tuning, once thought to be perfectly universal, has since been analyzed to prove that different cultures hear different ratios as perfect intervals. Some, like Catler, stress the harmonic series ascending and descending, as the source of perfect intervals. This tuning lends itself very well to blues music, as it emphasizes the notes from the dominant seventh chord (V7), but not to classical music. Classical western music takes two basic approaches to just tuning - renaissance and modern. Eastern just tuning breaks into Indian (which is very similar to western, with the exception of the sixth), Arabic, Indonesian, and Oriental (China was the first culture to develop 12-EDO).

To get the most consonant sounding EDO, one can compare the notes generated with just intervals to match as follows:

Western Modern: 12-EDO, 34-EDO
Western Renaissance: 19-EDO, 31-EDO
Arabic: 17-EDO, 24-EDO
Indonesian: 7-EDO, 15-EDO

Other semi-consonant EDO's have been deployed:
22-EDO has good thirds and decent fifths
17-EDO has good fifths
27-EDO has good minor thirds and acceptable thirds and fifths
29-EDO has good fifths
EDO's approximate intervals better, on average, as they increase in divisions.
Guitarists typically abhor any divisions greater than ~35, as the frets get smaller and smaller.

The beauty of semi-consonant EDO's is that they allow you to use some consonant intervals whilst exploring new dissonant intervals.

Choosing any number of divisions that is +1 or -1 from any of the above mentioned will typically give you a jumble of dissonance, like 11-EDO, 13-EDO, 16-EDO, 18-EDO, 20-EDO, 21-EDO, 23-EDO, 25-EDO, etc.

Maybe to get the maximum level of dissonance, you could take an unfretted board and place the frets at completely random locations, then tune each string to a completely random frequency. That would be complete mayhem, but I doubt that is your aim.

I have heard some death metal played on 17-EDO. (I know, unless I can prove it, it didn't happen!) Maybe I'll be able to track down the link. Having good fifths is a pretty good advantage to have in any style of music, but 17-EDO has some really whacky intervals that can take you into some pretty dissonant territory as far as western ears go, but the intervals still have some interesting qualities to them.

I hope this answers your question.

In a nutshell... 12 tone equal temperament was developed as a way to keep things sounding 'OK' in different keys. No intervals will be perfectly in tune but it's more or less in tune and relatively easy to develop playable instruments for, and allows for compositions with key changes. Increasing the number of available notes per octave can make certain intervals more accurate (and sometimes less accurate). It's all a compromise.

Very good summary.
I hope you are feeling better and I'm sure we would all appreciate seeing more of your work as it becomes available.

 

[dpm]

Very good summary.

lol, best I could do after several beers

I hope you are feeling better and I'm sure we would all appreciate seeing more of your work as it becomes available.

Overall, a lot better than I was, but still not quite 100%. Things could be a whole lot worse so I'm not complaining

 

[Xodus]

I hope this answers your question.

It does, amazingly well in fact. Thank you for typing all that out.

 

[ellengtrgrl]

Ellen,

Jon Catler is one of the pioneers of the microtonal electric guitar. His tuning system is quite different from the status quo even among microtonal guitarists.

You can also check out Neil Haverstick for examples of 19-EDO, 31-EDO, and 34-EDO. He has some compositions which sound very nice, and you may hardly be able to tell that there is anything microtonal going on unless you pay close attention to the tuning. He also has some "out" stuff, though.

I have a freenote 19-EDO superstrat and it plays very well. The body is fairly cheap, but I do not feel that the quality of the body is really as important as the quality of the neck and electronics. Plus, it is the same quality of wood you would get on a Squire Strat, just with better workmanship.

The beauty of 19-EDO, is that you can play one blindfolded and it sounds only moderately different from standard tuning. Once you get the hang of jamming some covers on it, it's pretty easy to start writing.

On more odd tunings, like 22-EDO, there are fewer analogies with standard tuning (12-EDO), which makes it more difficult to get to the stage where you can compose deliberately, but that adds more to the intrigue and lends itself more to quantum leaps in composition technique.

24-EDO Strat

Of the many options with fret spacing that small, 24-EDO tends not to be popular, because both 19-EDO and 22-EDO offer closer approximations to consonant intervals, and 31-EDO or 34-EDO take you extremely close to having all scale intervals closer to just tuning, and also offer many good approximations to non-western intervals.

Deliberate dissonance can be better achieved through 16-EDO, or 17-EDO if you want to keep good fifths, or pretty much anything that distances itself from other accepted systems of tuning.

Here is a nine string 16-EDO guitar by sword guitars:

Thanks for the info. These look soooo tasty!, and I never thought I'd say that about a Strat again (I got stratted out a long time ago). How much are they price-wise? I might look into getting one within the next month or two, if they don't cost a gajillion dollars. LOVE the 9, but I'm sure it costs way more than I can afford. Believe it or not, the 22 fret EDO is intriguing to me, due to it's oddball intervalic nature. That makes it challenging, and I could use a good musical challenge.

BTW, I listened to some of Neil's stuff on YouTube. He sounds really cool!!

 

[MaxOfMetal]

If you're going to go with Sword guitars, I think you'd be much better off giving them a guitar to replace the fretboard on.

Their custom 6-strings start at $1000 and, to be frank, they seem to be very basic in overall construction, as well as hardware used. Even their Strats like the one pictured are basically cheap copies that they sell for $400 to $600.

I'd much rather take a quality guitar that I have, or at least buy something like an Agile (cheap, but effective) and give it to them to do a conversion on.

 

[Holy Katana]

Let's get some extended just intonation in this mothafucka! This guy has modified several of his classical guitars' fretboards to play in various just tunings. It's really cool.

 

[Deadnightshade]

I think his fretboard has a devoted LSD filter

Really what is the mechanism on his guitar?