Microtonal Fretted Instruments?

[Holy Katana]

I think his fretboard has a devoted LSD filter

Really what is the mechanism on his guitar?

He put tape on the fretboard and colored it with markers to help him remember which note is which. If you look at them closely, you'll notice that the frets are irregular, so a visual aid is helpful. There are also three different guitars in the videos, each with different intonation systems (although they're all based on the harmonic series).

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Glad to see Dante Rosati in this thread, excellent musician.
I love that "Statue Of Alice" piece.
I would love to have an undertone-series based guitar.

 

[josh pelican]

If you're going to go with Sword guitars, I think you'd be much better off giving them a guitar to replace the fretboard on.

Their custom 6-strings start at $1000 and, to be frank, they seem to be very basic in overall construction, as well as hardware used. Even their Strats like the one pictured are basically cheap copies that they sell for $400 to $600.

I back this so hard. I don't know a lot about microtonal guitars, or Sword guitars, but that Xiphos-looking guitar looks like it was made with play-dough. Not to mention it looks pretty shitty.

Also, I agree with All Your Bass on Dante's "Statue of Alice". It's wonderful.

 

[bostjan]

There are a lot of luthiers who will refret an instrument for microtones for a reasonable price. I believe Jon Catler will. John Starret at least used to, and I once used a guy named Thomas Knath at MIT, but I don't know if he's still around.

Dan at Oni Guitars should have no problem doing modifications, and he does excellent work.

Steer clear, though, of any unknown dude hanging out at music stores saying he knows what he's doing when it comes to microtonal fretboards. I knew a guy who thought he knew what he was doing enough to convince another guy to get a fretboard done, and it turned out badly.

 

[Holy Katana]

Glad to see Dante Rosati in this thread, excellent musician.
I love that "Statue Of Alice" piece.
I would love to have an undertone-series based guitar.

How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?

 

[bostjan]

How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?

Jon Catler's tuning is based on overtones and undertones.

A lot of pure ratio tuning fretboards end up looking like this:

Catler's design is multi-tonic, so it doesn't mess with partial or bent frets.

 

[Holy Katana]

I want to put my old Epi SG to good use and make the fretboard just. Even though I'm not sure how I'd go about doing it. Obviously, the irregular frets are the challenge.

 

[bostjan]

I want to put my old Epi SG to good use and make the fretboard just. Even though I'm not sure how I'd go about doing it. Obviously, the irregular frets are the challenge.

Which notes? Ptolemaic should be easy to do with the open string as the tonic. I could shoot you some ratios by PM if you want to check out the system I pieced together to cover modern western intervals.

 

[Holy Katana]

Which notes? Ptolemaic should be easy to do with the open string as the tonic. I could shoot you some ratios by PM if you want to check out the system I pieced together to cover modern western intervals.

I was thinking 7-limit, not sure about how many tones. Definitely more than 12, less than, say, 30.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?

The Undertone series is the reverse of the Overtone series-i.e. in reverse. So whilst the overtone series starts with a base tone and adds higher harmonics that are a multiple of the original frequency the undertone series is based on dividing the original tone to get lower tone or undertones.

Also whilst the first few overtones create a major chord, the first few undertones make a minor chord.

So the Overtone series goes like this freq wise.
base, base x 2, base x 3, x4, x5, x6, x7, ... etc.

An Undertone series goes like this
base, base x 1/2, base x 1/3, base x 1/4, x1/5, x1/6, x1/7, ... etc.

It actually already has been manipulated to an extent. With some very precise bowing on the violin/viola one can actually create pitches that are LOWER than the open tuning of the string.

Wikipedia can probably flesh it out a bit more

 

[Holy Katana]

The Undertone series is the reverse of the Overtone series-i.e. in reverse. So whilst the overtone series starts with a base tone and adds higher harmonics that are a multiple of the original frequency the undertone series is based on dividing the original tone to get lower tone or undertones.

Also whilst the first few overtones create a major chord, the first few undertones make a minor chord.

So the Overtone series goes like this freq wise.
base, base x 2, base x 3, x4, x5, x6, x7, ... etc.

An Undertone series goes like this
base, base x 1/2, base x 1/3, base x 1/4, x1/5, x1/6, x1/7, ... etc.

It actually already has been manipulated to an extent. With some very precise bowing on the violin/viola one can actually create pitches that are LOWER than the open tuning of the string.

Wikipedia can probably flesh it out a bit more

I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.

 

[Varcolac]

I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.

Work downwards from the octave? Eh, I don't know.

 

[BlindingLight7]

!


Uhhh.....It gets really bad, then good, then bad, then good...GAH

 

[Customisbetter]

!


Uhhh.....It gets really bad, then good, then bad, then good...GAH

That was like somebody poring rum into my ears.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.

In our tuning system the harmonics that we tune our scales to actually happen at much higher frequencies, but we transpose those down via octaves, until they all fit in an octave. Of course 12TET and any other non-just tuning system will move the notes to places where they don't perfectly match the harmonics, but that general explanation still stands.

So in a just undertone tuning, you can transpose the other notes up via octaves until they fit in an octave.

Bostjan mentioned various equal temperaments.
This made me remember "Well Temperaments", which are in the middle areas between just tunings and equal tunings. These have been used for Piano tuning in the past. Well Temperaments allow use of all keys, and no key sounds really 'super good' or 'super "out"', but all the 12 keys have a different 'flavor'. They all have a unique series of intervals. So all chords on all roots have their intervals in slightly different places, aside from pitch a Dm chord will sound different than a Fm-unlike in 12TET where all chords of the same type(and same voicing) sound the same anywhere, except for their absolute pitch.

 

[Tymon]

Just dropping in to say I totally miss the point of these microtonal guitars. Sure, I'm all for trying new things and making progress in the world of music, and the idea of basing the intervals on a natural harmonic series is cool. But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...

 

[Durero]

But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...

I'd say a much more accurate statement would be, "But in the beginning, it just sounds completely unfamiliar and strange..."

If you've only heard equal tempered western music since birth, watching a few youtube videos is probably not gonna do it.

But you still might be surprised what consistent and repeated listenings over a period of months or years might do for your ears. Not only can your ears & brain adapt fairly quickly (year or so in my experience with Balinese gamelan) to other tuning schemes, but doing so may also refine your sensitivity and appreciation of good old equal temperament.

 

[Holy Katana]

In our tuning system the harmonics that we tune our scales to actually happen at much higher frequencies, but we transpose those down via octaves, until they all fit in an octave. Of course 12TET and any other non-just tuning system will move the notes to places where they don't perfectly match the harmonics, but that general explanation still stands.

So in a just undertone tuning, you can transpose the other notes up via octaves until they fit in an octave.

Bostjan mentioned various equal temperaments.
This made me remember "Well Temperaments", which are in the middle areas between just tunings and equal tunings. These have been used for Piano tuning in the past. Well Temperaments allow use of all keys, and no key sounds really 'super good' or 'super "out"', but all the 12 keys have a different 'flavor'. They all have a unique series of intervals. So all chords on all roots have their intervals in slightly different places, aside from pitch a Dm chord will sound different than a Fm-unlike in 12TET where all chords of the same type(and same voicing) sound the same anywhere, except for their absolute pitch.

Again, I know all of this. How different would an undertone tuning be, though? That's really what I want to know.

Just dropping in to say I totally miss the point of these microtonal guitars. Sure, I'm all for trying new things and making progress in the world of music, and the idea of basing the intervals on a natural harmonic series is cool. But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...

Reactionary! Kill him!

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

^You're just used to hearing 12TET which is pretty darn out.
Of course any tuning system can be used to make pleasant or grating sounding music, it's all in how it used. But how we are conditioned to hear things (via what musical experiences we have throughout our lives) has a HUGE effect on what one perceives as "in-tune." You could very well not like what you're hearing, though Beethoven would (most likely) say the same thing about a 12TET piano!!

If you were to play a perfectly tuned triad through high gain distortion, it would be just as clear as a power chord. On the usual 12TET guitar distortion brings the mistuned harmonies to the surface. Just tuning also allows clear chords in the bass register.

Another reason to have one of these guitars would be for studying music of other cultures which have completely different tuning systems. For example a 22TET guitar would be great for investigating east indian music,which divides teh octave into 22 parts, not equally though, and the super high frets on sitars allow minute modifications to the notes, much like pressing harder on a scalloped board. These are not random however, each scale has varies notes played with a specific amount of "bending" as an actual part of the scale itself.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

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