Might have to give up 8 strings?!

[Jeries]

So Im a professional musician and lately I started to have an odd sensation when doing runs, especially legato on my 8 string. I went to the doctor, and apparently, the only thing that changed (as he has known me for years) has been my playing position, and he said it may be responsible for my pain and spasming. He suggested I try to rest a few days completely, and then go back to my normal 7 string guitar necks and see how I feel.

Fast forward a few weeks, and I did as he suggested, along with some of the PT exercises. I haven't had the sensation return and it is starting to make me sadly wonder, "do I have to give up playing 8 strings as my main guitar!"

I really really love my ESP CS; many of my posts show that...but I don't want to even think or believe that when I start to play my B8 again, as im supposed to start next week, that the pain and stiffness and cramps will return because if they do - I have to get rid of it ! Dr orders....

Doesn't that blow? Has anyone else experience tendinitis or carpel tunnel like symptoms or syndrome after playing or starting with your 8+ string....admittedly my hands are somewhat small, so I really hope I don't have to sell/trade my guitar for physical limitations which is embarrassing too lol

anyway just thought Id blow off steam here since no one else would understand what the hell im talking about if they see im down and I have to explain "ugh, I might not be able to play my custom ERGs anymore" lol

THank you for reading

 

[bostjan]

Sorry to hear that.

You might want to look into the mechanics of that and make sure there's not a less drastic solution.

 

[GunpointMetal]

I have small to normal size hands and when I went from 6 to 8 strings I had to really adjust how I held the guitar, how I sat with the guitar, how my strap was setup, etc. With 9 strings it's even more dramatic. The upper horn sits just below my left collar bone when I'm strapped up, which allows me to keep a pretty consistent bend in my elbow and wrist without too much rotating or awkward stretching and when I'm sitting I have an 6" yoga block I put under my left foot to keep the neck up and the guitar in place in relatively "classical" position. With six I could do the James Hetfield low strap and just plop the guitar body over my right thigh with the neck just about parallel to the floor and never really notice. Now I gotta have everything setup like a jazz nerd to reach everything, but it doesn't cause any pain (unless I'm over-doing it on a repetitive part). It certainly doesn't look cool, but function > form and whatnot.

 

[nickgray]

do I have to give up playing 8 strings as my main guitar!

Maybe try a different 8 string? Neck profile and thickness does have a pretty major effect or ergonomics, after all. If you can, perhaps check out Strandberg eights, they do have those fancy weird necks that are supposed to be more ergonomic.

 

[tarzegetakizerd]

may be try a different position when playing. carpal tunnel is more about positioning afair

 

[Thorsday]

Play with the guitar closer to you... If your wrist is too bent over and you are playing very technical progressions... That will cause problems.

 

[nightlight]

I was going to suggest going with a different guitar as well. ESP and Ibanez necks tend to be thin to the point that I always start to develop a pain in my hands when I'm playing in the lower registers. Switching to guitars with a more curved neck, as opposed to the thin U on the ESPs and Ibanezes, stopped the pain altogether. I'm with @nickgray on the Strandbergs as well: I have an eight and it is extremely comfortable to play, even though the scale is 26.5"-28".

 

[Gtan7]

(Probably you're way beyond this level but) this is a good video (Dani Rabin of Marbin, monster player) showing how to rotate thumb and wrist as you move fretting hand from bass to treble strings. You could also try the high angled neck like classical players do

 

[Jeries]

Thank you for all the feedback, because each post was very helpful in its own right

things to consider now as I head into it next week, putting all of this together:

1) guitar position
2) wrist and elbow angling
3) possibly, and worst of all, the neck itself issue and finding a new guitar

1) I’m going to try your suggestions and play with it in a morello style (very high and close to the chest ) if I understood you all who think this would help. Also, that yoga block is a great idea ! I have a stool I use for my classical guitars so I’ll prop my leg up, pull that guitar close, and have no pressure on bearing any neck weight

2) thanks for the video and for the pointers about position of wrist and elbow. It seems, as I suspected with gun point metals 9 string reply, that the actual neck and physical size of my playing hands are a bit incompatible. I actually went from a 2228 to the B8 (as you guys did note, I went with Ibanez and ESP for the neck width and thickness, and perhaps that was instead a mistake - a very costly $4,000 mistake!! Luckily it’s still mint/near perfect so that part of selling isn’t the issue; it’s more or less I see it as a niche guitar (despite it being a semi -custom , meaning it’s a Tokyo CS they make like a few of a year, but they aren’t popular guitars, I haven’t seen more than two ever online from other owners, and those were the EMG models, so it would be sort of hard to unload without a huge loss, that’s my last thing) but yes your most all right - ESP might even be a narrower width and thin profile to the Ibanez, so perhaps on top of the mechanics it really is a physical limitation I may have to either contend with or submit to. I know 9 strings would never work for me lol

3) on that note, on top of selling it, I would have to now find a better neck for me. I saw the strandberg neck, and it looks quite interesting; actually it looks to be the only asymmetrical build of that ergonomic sort, which is very original ingenuity. Maybe that’s the way to go, but it’s hard to imagine sinking more money in case it’s another stinker for me.

anyway, I don’t want to jump to conclusions just yet; I’m going to reintroduce the instrument slowly with the tips and thanks for anecdotes too. It’s comforting to hear others felt a sensation but were able to either adjust to make it work or find an alternative

good posts all! Thank you

 

[Gtan7]

Oh Yeah, maybe try a headless and even look at how Marcus Reuter's touch guitar hangs at 2:15 or so

 

[Jeries]

Oh Yeah, maybe try a headless and even look at how Marcus Reuter's touch guitar hangs at 2:15 or so

I think it is sort of the opposite for standing up?? I don’t play like that , much more traditional rock guitarist, if you hear or see any of my tracks ... but I can see what you mean about the angle in relation to the body so that the lower frets are basically like even squared shoulder height so you can just jam away....but i would definitely need a yoga block to prop my knee up for a lead haha

Interesting song and playing though !

 

[ixlramp]

I went to the doctor, and apparently, the only thing that changed (as he has known me for years) has been my playing position, and he said it may be responsible for my pain and spasming. He suggested I try to rest a few days completely, and then go back to my normal 7 string guitar necks and see how I feel.

Fast forward a few weeks, and I did as he suggested, along with some of the PT exercises. I haven't had the sensation return and it is starting to make me sadly wonder, "do I have to give up playing 8 strings as my main guitar!"

You probably realise this but, this does not confirm the problem is 8 strings. The problem may have been solved by the rest and PT exercises, not by playing 7 strings. I expect playing position, exercises and technique probably have more effect than 7 versus 8 strings.

Keep in mind that almost all guitar body shapes, especially superstrats, are (despite the many that will disagree) ergonomic disasters when resting on either thigh (with no strap). Strapped on (whether standing or sitting) is far more ergonomic and healthy.
Your problem could be caused by playing sitting down.
Best is strapped on so high you can sit down on a highish stool without the guitar even touching your thighs, see Robert Fripp.

If you prop up one leg for sitting classical position this is known to be very bad for your back (eventually, even if it seems okay in the short term). Better is a guitar-raising 'cushion' between thigh and guitar (they make these for classical guitar) and keep your thighs level with each other.

 

[Drew Strong]

I just had to take 2 months of no guitar playing due to pain and tingling sensations in my wrists, with 6 months before that of barely playing.
What made it worse:
Physical Therapy
Helped at fisrt, after a few weeks it started to worsen even while not playing guitar at all.

What helped:
Stretching every time, heating pad before playing, Yoga, ergonomic/light guitar if possible, technique and posture with EVERYTHING not just guitar playing

I saw a hand specialist who works with lots of musicians and her advice was to limit play time to 2 hours a day, and pain is often inevitable with musicians, and as long as the pain isnt extreme it is okay to keep playing.
Good luck!

 

[Gtan7]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423488466/?

The book is really good, i read it a few years ago. One thing was to analyze other factors. PC keyboard is obvious, but driving/bike riding, power/manual tools, yardwork can contribute. Dehyration, inflammation from whatever causes...

Maybe look into acupuncture, arnica, chinese herbs also. Other forums people have said Alexander technique, rolfing, body manipulation stuff like that helped them but i don't have direct knowledge

 

[StevenC]

Physical Therapy
Helped at fisrt, after a few weeks it started to worsen even while not playing guitar at all.

What helped:
Stretching every time, heating pad before playing, Yoga, ergonomic/light guitar if possible, technique and posture with EVERYTHING not just guitar playing

Sounds like you had a bad physio therapist and then trial and errored your way into good physio therapy.

 

[spudmunkey]

Is your 8 the same scale as your 7? The longer the scale, for me, the more uncomfortable it is to pay in my "normal" positions. Even 27" is enough to screw things up for me.

 

[Jeries]

You probably realise this but, this does not confirm the problem is 8 strings. The problem may have been solved by the rest and PT exercises, not by playing 7 strings. I expect playing position, exercises and technique probably have more effect than 7 versus 8 strings.

Keep in mind that almost all guitar body shapes, especially superstrats, are (despite the many that will disagree) ergonomic disasters when resting on either thigh (with no strap). Strapped on (whether standing or sitting) is far more ergonomic and healthy.
Your problem could be caused by playing sitting down.
Best is strapped on so high you can sit down on a highish stool without the guitar even touching your thighs, see Robert Fripp.

If you prop up one leg for sitting classical position this is known to be very bad for your back (eventually, even if it seems okay in the short term). Better is a guitar-raising 'cushion' between thigh and guitar (they make these for classical guitar) and keep your thighs level with each other.

I did not know that. That is very useful...I've never even HEARD of that - between the classical position hurting your back and that there is an ergonomic cushion. I don't mean to impose on you, but if you have a link to a recommendation I would prefer that than to just "guess" which I should possibly buy.

I also never heard that about superstrat bodies! Here I was thinking it was the closest to a "classical" guitar body ergonomics, and I was obviously very wrong. This thread caused me to buy a new strap actually just to test it (Dimarzio Cliplocks are still the best!!!) but this is MY hand, so despite loyalty issues, Im doing what I have to do for my health and future. If I do any damage to my hand, that's my livelihood.

I just had to take 2 months of no guitar playing due to pain and tingling sensations in my wrists, with 6 months before that of barely playing.
What made it worse:
Physical Therapy
Helped at fisrt, after a few weeks it started to worsen even while not playing guitar at all.

What helped:
Stretching every time, heating pad before playing, Yoga, ergonomic/light guitar if possible, technique and posture with EVERYTHING not just guitar playing

I saw a hand specialist who works with lots of musicians and her advice was to limit play time to 2 hours a day, and pain is often inevitable with musicians, and as long as the pain isnt extreme it is okay to keep playing.
Good luck!

Yeah, that is very similar to my situation. My tingling, or what I called a "nerve pop" is happening from the funny bone of the elbow through the wrist and to me ring and pinky fingers. So while I can use my first two fingers almost normally, with light cramping, the last two digits would actually cramp up completely and curl from the pain, like an automatic physiological response to the "damage." Ive been doing homeopathic treatments on top of the PT (soaking in Epsom salts, rubbing canna-oil into the three afflicted areas, etc). I hope your issue cleared completely

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423488466/?

The book is really good, i read it a few years ago. One thing was to analyze other factors. PC keyboard is obvious, but driving/bike riding, power/manual tools, yardwork can contribute. Dehyration, inflammation from whatever causes...

Maybe look into acupuncture, arnica, chinese herbs also. Other forums people have said Alexander technique, rolfing, body manipulation stuff like that helped them but i don't have direct knowledge

Thanks. That might have an effect too. I was recently put on a new medication which makes you dry out, so maybe its like a hydration/voltage channel biologically, that I have to definitely attend to. That was a consideration actually, but first, dr wanted me to suspend the new guitar playing and go back to where I didn't have this issue at all. Im open to the homeopathic or naturopathic medicines, but my insurance is shit right now. They don't cover accupuncture, and my area isn't known for its practitioners lol...id be scared to get needled by a westerner. ill take a look into that book. thank you

Is your 8 the same scale as your 7? The longer the scale, for me, the more uncomfortable it is to pay in my "normal" positions. Even 27" is enough to screw things up for me.

No way. I mean the B8 is 27" and the RG7420 is 25.5". I didn't think an inch and a half would have much difference, and I still am not sure it does because I like the upper fret access of the ESP - I ' think' so correct my mistakes, but the B8 is a custom shop of the Horizon body, so it has great scoop to the lower horn and the neck/through cavity is very naturally ergonomic, one of the best parts of the guitar, and something hard to find on almost all of the 8 strings I played before landing on this model, was the neck "felt" like a 7 string, in terms of width and thin profile, as you all seem to know already about ESP, but maybe that isn't exactly good on a 27" neck with an 8th string. Maybe you're right? That would be really shitty if 1.5" makes the difference of having what I thought was the coolest ERG to going back to 7 strings....

Don't get me wrong, God Forbid, I have to go back to 7 strings - those are my favorite anyway as my new love for ERGs is fresh due to the new big purchase of the ESP - but I can always revert to my former normal you dig?

I can't lie, I have sat the B8 in my lap, and held it with different angles and heights WITHOUT FRETTING (don't worry) and it does feel like that would greatly change the angle of my playing just by holding it...so all of you have given me a lot of insights into dealing with ERGs. They should come with a disclaimer, do you not buy if your hands are under this "size" like theme park rides at six flags haha j/k

 

[Gtan7]

I took interest in this cuz i was just about to order my first 8, have had 5 7 stringers, I think, kept 2 multiscales which I love and have smallish hands, like i have to force playing a 10th on the white keys on a piano.

Probably the most important thing, is don't do what a lot of medical folk will tell you , that taking maximal doses of advil AND tylenol is ok becuase one is taken out by the liver, the other by kidneys. I've heard of people having problems just with tylenol and with both.

 

[SCJR]

Hey man bummer and I hear ya about the $$$ to explore other options like Strandberg but the Endurneck actually really helped my issues when it came to this. I play a 7 and have never played the 8, though I have heard testimonies that echo either side of the spectrum on it. Some loved it, some found it not a good shape once you got past 7 into the 8. Again I am not an 8 string player so I'm limited in experience.

If you can commit to keeping your thumb on the back of the neck while you play (if you do not already do so) then I think there really is something to the design. It keeps your thumb from moving back and forth as much laterally because the surface is no longer rounded as with traditional necks. That and the way the shape helps to keep your wrist straight solved all of my problems.

But the big factor here, I believe, is the headstock. I chose Strandberg for the additional benefits of the neck shape but once I ventured into headless guitars I realized how much we are actually working to keep the headstock end supported, especially on neck-heavy guitars. Sold two beautiful Gretsches as soon as I noticed the benefits of the new guitar. Sad to see them go, still miss them, but it's an investment in health and the ability to play into the future.

FWIW my issues were in my left hand/wrist/arm/shoulder, not my right (picking) side. Good luck man! I sympathize with this one.

 

[dspellman]

Sorry to hear that.

You might want to look into the mechanics of that and make sure there's not a less drastic solution.

Ditto on the sympathy. Ditto, too, on the mechanics obviously being part of what's causing your problem. Those mechanics can be changed, the position of the guitar can be changed, etc. I've seen headless guitars change lives (well, guitar-wise, anyway) -- the lack of neck dive and the reduced weight, as well as a change in strap length and neck angle can make a major difference. You may also find that a fan-fret (multiscale) is in your future, since the angle of the multiscale frets helps put your wrist in the correct position.

And finally, it may be time to look into inflammation pain relief. Something like Voltaren gel (CostCo, over the counter) might be the ticket.