Might have to give up 8 strings?!

[Jeries]

Hey man bummer and I hear ya about the $$$ to explore other options like Strandberg but the Endurneck actually really helped my issues when it came to this. I play a 7 and have never played the 8, though I have heard testimonies that echo either side of the spectrum on it. Some loved it, some found it not a good shape once you got past 7 into the 8. Again I am not an 8 string player so I'm limited in experience.

If you can commit to keeping your thumb on the back of the neck while you play (if you do not already do so) then I think there really is something to the design. It keeps your thumb from moving back and forth as much laterally because the surface is no longer rounded as with traditional necks. That and the way the shape helps to keep your wrist straight solved all of my problems.

But the big factor here, I believe, is the headstock. I chose Strandberg for the additional benefits of the neck shape but once I ventured into headless guitars I realized how much we are actually working to keep the headstock end supported, especially on neck-heavy guitars. Sold two beautiful Gretsches as soon as I noticed the benefits of the new guitar. Sad to see them go, still miss them, but it's an investment in health and the ability to play into the future.

FWIW my issues were in my left hand/wrist/arm/shoulder, not my right (picking) side. Good luck man! I sympathize with this one.

Ditto on the sympathy. Ditto, too, on the mechanics obviously being part of what's causing your problem. Those mechanics can be changed, the position of the guitar can be changed, etc. I've seen headless guitars change lives (well, guitar-wise, anyway) -- the lack of neck dive and the reduced weight, as well as a change in strap length and neck angle can make a major difference. You may also find that a fan-fret (multiscale) is in your future, since the angle of the multiscale frets helps put your wrist in the correct position.

And finally, it may be time to look into inflammation pain relief. Something like Voltaren gel (CostCo, over the counter) might be the ticket.

thank you, I will try that (Bengay actually wasn't bad, icy hot a little better, but ill give that a try)

After all your endorsements of the endurneck, it may be time to throw my ESP B8 up for trade for a Strandberg endurneck - I should be able to do an even swap for one of the "real" European models rather than the Korean production line from Sweetwater - maybe even get a little cash or at least free shipping both ways, right? I mean for an ESP of this highest caliber (and a Tokyo CS certificate of authenticity with OHSC, MSRP $4200, street price, around $3750-3900 new; and this is absolutely near mint, with barely a noticeable blemish anywhere, maybe some light surface scratches that can be easily buffed out with GuitarScratchRepair making it indistinguishable from a new one) should exceed a European Endurneck?I should do my own research, but does anyone think it an outlandish proposition to attempt to sell/trade my B8 for an 8 string Endurneck, and furthermore, how do I know which model, because it is a huge list of stand bergs......

I guess we've arrived at a (the?)solution?

thanks

 

[Marv Attaxx]

thank you, I will try that (Bengay actually wasn't bad, icy hot a little better, but ill give that a try)

After all your endorsements of the endurneck, it may be time to throw my ESP B8 up for trade for a Strandberg endurneck - I should be able to do an even swap for one of the "real" European models rather than the Korean production line from Sweetwater - maybe even get a little cash or at least free shipping both ways, right? I mean for an ESP of this highest caliber (and a Tokyo CS certificate of authenticity with OHSC, MSRP $4200, street price, around $3750-3900 new; and this is absolutely near mint, with barely a noticeable blemish anywhere, maybe some light surface scratches that can be easily buffed out with GuitarScratchRepair making it indistinguishable from a new one) should exceed a European Endurneck?I should do my own research, but does anyone think it an outlandish proposition to attempt to sell/trade my B8 for an 8 string Endurneck, and furthermore, how do I know which model, because it is a huge list of stand bergs......

I guess we've arrived at a (the?)solution?

thanks

Most of the japanese Strandbergs I've seen were in the ballpark of 3200-3700 USD and that's used. Haven't seen a European one in years tho (there's one on Reverb for 18k ). Iirc they stopped the European construction in 2018 when they both ended the Custom Shop and Made-to-Measure products.
Also the production line Strandbergs these days are not even made in Korea anymore! They're made in Indonesia with MIK prices, so do not trade that ESP for anything Indonesian
Can't really add more, never had a Strandberg or a Custom ESP, just kept my eyes open for a Strandberg for a couple of years before going used-Prestige

 

[Jeries]

Most of the japanese Strandbergs I've seen were in the ballpark of 3200-3700 USD and that's used. Haven't seen a European one in years tho (there's one on Reverb for 18k ). Iirc they stopped the European construction in 2018 when they both ended the Custom Shop and Made-to-Measure products.
Also the production line Strandbergs these days are not even made in Korea anymore! They're made in Indonesia with MIK prices, so do not trade that ESP for anything Indonesian
Can't really add more, never had a Strandberg or a Custom ESP, just kept my eyes open for a Strandberg for a couple of years before going used-Prestige

Thank you for that extremely vital information! So then basically, Im going to stalk CL, Reverb, and any other places you guys might think I should put a trade up even swap - A Japanese CS ESP for a Japanese Strandberg.

PS I mean, is this a little self serving in asking here, does anyone want to trade an 8 string Strandberg of CS quality for my B8? I assure you, if you have normal to larger hands, the issues I faced will not be an issue for you.

 

[Gtan7]

this is a convoluted production history and thread about getting Japanese Strands here

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/am-i-able-to-order-a-japanese-berg-in-the-us.346076/

https://support.strandbergguitars.com/article/28-where-are-strandberg-guitars-made

and a bit about dyna Gakki https://strandbergguitars.com/strandberg-overseas-manufacturing/

 

[BigViolin]

Hold on to the B8 and try a used or blem standard 8. For $12-1600 a good example standard will be as well built as anything in the line. Refurbed standards show up on the site from time to time. That way you could try one with maybe a small hit if any, if you don't dig it. Used, fairly priced Strandbergs move quickly.

 

[tarzegetakizerd]

Thank you for that extremely vital information! So then basically, Im going to stalk CL, Reverb, and any other places you guys might think I should put a trade up even swap - A Japanese CS ESP for a Japanese Strandberg.

PS I mean, is this a little self serving in asking here, does anyone want to trade an 8 string Strandberg of CS quality for my B8? I assure you, if you have normal to larger hands, the issues I faced will not be an issue for you.

you're really letting go of the B8? have you managed to apply any adjustment around the guitar? or too impatient to try? Seems a little overboard to sell the guitar immediately. I'd try everything first before quitting the B8

 

[Metal Mortician]

Before you go down the rabbit hole of new gear, I would ask for a referral to a dedicated Occupational Therapist. They are more adept and trained in non surgical approaches to hand issues and can lend some great insight to your problem.

 

[Gtan7]

Yeah, this is the kind of stuff bassists have been dealing with for years, neck heavy, fretting way far away from the body, big reaches. I had a Warwick 5, i moved the bottom strap button further left which made it even more ridiculously neck heavy and put a scuba diving weight at that strap button to even things out. Sounds ridiculous but with a wide suede (non slippery) strap it was a more comfortable position with the bass further right.

Also seen players like Damien Erskine use double bass guitar straps. And SF guitarworks used to make metal upper horn extenders to move that strap button, they weren't real attractive tho.

Tho I wouldn't be drilling on the MiJ ESP, have another sacrificial lab guitar

 

[mastapimp]

I wouldn't gamble on a strandberg all of the sudden solving your 8 string woes.

Go to a specialist, preferably one that has experience with musicians and work out a plan to address/correct the issue.

I had a lingering problem with my ankle from years of sprains playing basketball and the first advice I received was "stop playing basketball, see if the pain goes away". It did go away to a degree, but there was still occasions when I felt like something was not right or broken, even outside of running and jumping. I wasn't satisfied so I got a referral to a specialist that had seem my problem numerous times and knew exactly how to address it and correct it so I could fully recover with no more issues going forward. In fact, it turned out to be a team of people that helped me out (1 orthopedic surgeon, 1 podiatrist, one resident in sports health) as well as a few physical therapists that set up a progressive plan of action involving time away from sports, rebuilding weakened muscles, stretching, and gradually reintroducing running/jumping activities, all while maintaining the correct form and biomechanics to realign the problematic joints. I've since had no recurrent issues with that ankle.

It may not be cheap, but it's probably worth your time and effort to have someone address the problem, solve it, and provide you the tools and knowledge to prevent it from happening in the future.

 

[SCJR]

thank you, I will try that (Bengay actually wasn't bad, icy hot a little better, but ill give that a try)

After all your endorsements of the endurneck, it may be time to throw my ESP B8 up for trade for a Strandberg endurneck - I should be able to do an even swap for one of the "real" European models rather than the Korean production line from Sweetwater - maybe even get a little cash or at least free shipping both ways, right? I mean for an ESP of this highest caliber (and a Tokyo CS certificate of authenticity with OHSC, MSRP $4200, street price, around $3750-3900 new; and this is absolutely near mint, with barely a noticeable blemish anywhere, maybe some light surface scratches that can be easily buffed out with GuitarScratchRepair making it indistinguishable from a new one) should exceed a European Endurneck?I should do my own research, but does anyone think it an outlandish proposition to attempt to sell/trade my B8 for an 8 string Endurneck, and furthermore, how do I know which model, because it is a huge list of stand bergs......

I guess we've arrived at a (the?)solution?

thanks

I would say I agree with everyone here, I would not sell a guitar of that caliber to blindly dive into a Strandberg...especially a Strandberg. This could get a bit long but I do not want you to make a decision that you might regret before you heard it from someone who's owned a few at this point. I stand by everything I said as the Strandberg design and company as a whole have related to me and believe there are others out there who have had similar experiences but there are variables here to consider:

- I could write a novel breaking down the various QC up's and down's Strandberg has exhibited over its short 10 or so year run in production. But to keep it short I think your safest bet high end is a Japanese model; and safest bet lower end is a used, MIK, non-OS model.

Non-OS meaning anything that is part of the Prog, Metal, Original, Fusion, etc line. Before that, all guitars were simply Boden OS models with varying specs, at least as far as I understand it. Stay away from OS models, in my opinion. The EMGs are not my thing and imo the Lace Alumitones sounded awful.

- My very first Strandberg was a 2016 OS7 hardtail and it was an absolute lemon. Sold it in days. High zero fret, high frets in general, terrible pickups which I mentioned, terrible flame top which those were also known for, but I did learn everything I needed to know about setting them up. Bought a MIK 2017 Prog 7, got a fret level and it is an amazing guitar. Currently my #1.

- Months later got a 2020 Classic 6 new from Strandberg. Great guitar, apparently the newer Indonesian models are seeing much better QC than the first year or two of production. So based just on hearsay, if you go Indonesian I'd stay in the 2020/2021 range personally. The neck is a bit more rounded off and slightly thicker on the Indonesians than the Koreans, and personally I prefer the more drastic Endurneck edges and thinner profile, but a lot of people said otherwise leading to that change.

Mentioned all of this to speak mostly on my firsthand experience with an Indonesian example, not really the merits of a 6 string. Sold that to fund other things as I'm really happy with one guitar these days. But personally I think their 6 string design is my favorite overall; I just can't go back from 7 at this point lol.


- I sold my guitars off when I got my Strandberg(s) but those were a Gretsch hollowbody with a 16" body and and a 6128 Duo Jet. Even the Duo Jet was a pretty big body. I'm not a big dude and I write on a steno machine for hours every day. Playing guitar was not the primary aggravator of my issues but it did not help at all. You throw together my job, my size and not having huge hands, the Strandberg works for me in a way that the larger guitars do not. I'm completely happy to play headless guitars and especially if they are ERGs. You're playing an 8-string with a headstock, basically the opposite of a Strandberg or something similar.

All of this to say I bought a MIK Prog 7 used on Reverb for $1900 shipped and moved on from guitars that were flat out the wrong shape for the combination of my body type, injuries, and hand size. It's a different game than possibly moving a B8 on to blindly try out a very proprietary guitar that can be a gamble when purchasing blindly.

Sorry for that novel but hope it helps!

 

[Jeries]

Thank you for that extremely vital information! So then basically, Im going to stalk CL, Reverb, and any other places you guys might think I should put a trade up even swap - A Japanese CS ESP for a Japanese Strandberg.

PS I mean, is this a little self serving in asking here, does anyone want to trade an 8 string Strandberg of CS quality for my B8? I assure you, if you have normal to larger hands, the issues I faced will not be an issue for you.

this is a convoluted production history and thread about getting Japanese Strands here

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/am-i-able-to-order-a-japanese-berg-in-the-us.346076/

https://support.strandbergguitars.com/article/28-where-are-strandberg-guitars-made

and a bit about dyna Gakki https://strandbergguitars.com/strandberg-overseas-manufacturing/

Woah! What a rollercoaster! That’s not a good sign to me

Hold on to the B8 and try a used or blem standard 8. For $12-1600 a good example standard will be as well built as anything in the line. Refurbed standards show up on the site from time to time. That way you could try one with maybe a small hit if any, if you don't dig it. Used, fairly priced Strandbergs move quickly.

Your point is being supported by all the other posts

you're really letting go of the B8? have you managed to apply any adjustment around the guitar? or too impatient to try? Seems a little overboard to sell the guitar immediately. I'd try everything first before quitting the B8

I am not for sure, giving up yet, I still have yet to try the adjustments and the PT/excercise and ointments suggested . I just started to play it this morning, very light on the higher strings to try new elbow and wrist position and angles, it feels weird like I’m not using my finger tips in the proper technical fashion, you know what I mean....almost like I’m barring the String but it’s just trial and error right now

Before you go down the rabbit hole of new gear, I would ask for a referral to a dedicated Occupational Therapist. They are more adept and trained in non surgical approaches to hand issues and can lend some great insight to your problem.

I’ll look into that; my insurance is shit but I’ll try to find one on Groupon lol

Yeah, this is the kind of stuff bassists have been dealing with for years, neck heavy, fretting way far away from the body, big reaches. I had a Warwick 5, i moved the bottom strap button further left which made it even more ridiculously neck heavy and put a scuba diving weight at that strap button to even things out. Sounds ridiculous but with a wide suede (non slippery) strap it was a more comfortable position with the bass further right.

Also seen players like Damien Erskine use double bass guitar straps. And SF guitarworks used to make metal upper horn extenders to move that strap button, they weren't real attractive tho.

Tho I wouldn't be drilling on the MiJ ESP,

no I won’t do that yet lol no way

I wouldn't gamble on a strandberg all of the sudden solving your 8 string woes.

Go to a specialist, preferably one that has experience with musicians and work out a plan to address/correct the issue.

I had a lingering problem with my ankle from years of sprains playing basketball and the first advice I received was "stop playing basketball, see if the pain goes away". It did go away to a degree, but there was still occasions when I felt like something was not right or broken, even outside of running and jumping. I wasn't satisfied so I got a referral to a specialist that had seem my problem numerous times and knew exactly how to address it and correct it so I could fully recover with no more issues going forward. In fact, it turned out to be a team of people that helped me out (1 orthopedic surgeon, 1 podiatrist, one resident in sports health) as well as a few physical therapists that set up a progressive plan of action involving time away from sports, rebuilding weakened muscles, stretching, and gradually reintroducing running/jumping activities, all while maintaining the correct form and biomechanics to realign the problematic joints. I've since had no recurrent issues with that ankle.

It may not be cheap, but it's probably worth your time and effort to have someone address the problem, solve it, and provide you the tools and knowledge to prevent it from happening in the future.

it is true, that’s the best way to go about it, but besides insurance, it makes me wonder if I’m going too far out of my way to hold onto something I MAY be unable to really pull off but again, professionals would be of best help I think at this point as well

I would say I agree with everyone here, I would not sell a guitar of that caliber to blindly dive into a Strandberg...especially a Strandberg. This could get a bit long but I do not want you to make a decision that you might regret before you heard it from someone who's owned a few at this point. I stand by everything I said as the Strandberg design and company as a whole have related to me and believe there are others out there who have had similar experiences but there are variables here to consider:

- I could write a novel breaking down the various QC up's and down's Strandberg has exhibited over its short 10 or so year run in production. But to keep it short I think your safest bet high end is a Japanese model; and safest bet lower end is a used, MIK, non-OS model.

Non-OS meaning anything that is part of the Prog, Metal, Original, Fusion, etc line. Before that, all guitars were simply Boden OS models with varying specs, at least as far as I understand it. Stay away from OS models, in my opinion. The EMGs are not my thing and imo the Lace Alumitones sounded awful.

- My very first Strandberg was a 2016 OS7 hardtail and it was an absolute lemon. Sold it in days. High zero fret, high frets in general, terrible pickups which I mentioned, terrible flame top which those were also known for, but I did learn everything I needed to know about setting them up. Bought a MIK 2017 Prog 7, got a fret level and it is an amazing guitar. Currently my #1.

- Months later got a 2020 Classic 6 new from Strandberg. Great guitar, apparently the newer Indonesian models are seeing much better QC than the first year or two of production. So based just on hearsay, if you go Indonesian I'd stay in the 2020/2021 range personally. The neck is a bit more rounded off and slightly thicker on the Indonesians than the Koreans, and personally I prefer the more drastic Endurneck edges and thinner profile, but a lot of people said otherwise leading to that change.

Mentioned all of this to speak mostly on my firsthand experience with an Indonesian example, not really the merits of a 6 string. Sold that to fund other things as I'm really happy with one guitar these days. But personally I think their 6 string design is my favorite overall; I just can't go back from 7 at this point lol.


- I sold my guitars off when I got my Strandberg(s) but those were a Gretsch hollowbody with a 16" body and and a 6128 Duo Jet. Even the Duo Jet was a pretty big body. I'm not a big dude and I write on a steno machine for hours every day. Playing guitar was not the primary aggravator of my issues but it did not help at all. You throw together my job, my size and not having huge hands, the Strandberg works for me in a way that the larger guitars do not. I'm completely happy to play headless guitars and especially if they are ERGs. You're playing an 8-string with a headstock, basically the opposite of a Strandberg or something similar.

All of this to say I bought a MIK Prog 7 used on Reverb for $1900 shipped and moved on from guitars that were flat out the wrong shape for the combination of my body type, injuries, and hand size. It's a different game than possibly moving a B8 on to blindly try out a very proprietary guitar that can be a gamble when purchasing blindly.

Sorry for that novel but hope it helps!

hey, that novel was the clincher. I am NOT trading or selling my b8. If anything I will work at the AMAZING HELP FROM ALL OF YOUR INPUT, and I will update in a couple of weeks on how the progress goes now that I am just starting to implement that new toolkit from the thread

I DO appreciate this more than you can imagine my friends

 

[AboutBlank]

Keep in mind that almost all guitar body shapes, especially superstrats, are (despite the many that will disagree) ergonomic disasters when resting on either thigh (with no strap). Strapped on (whether standing or sitting) is far more ergonomic and healthy.
Your problem could be caused by playing sitting down.
Best is strapped on so high you can sit down on a highish stool without the guitar even touching your thighs, see Robert Fripp.

Thank you, very much and sincerely!

It's really crazy how bad habits or even unawareness take hold.
I always had pain in my lower back and lower rib area.
When sitting, I always varied the playing position slightly and tried several positions, but never with success.

I have been testing your suggestion since yesterday and so far I have no pain, the difference is enormous.

You're a terrific chap!

 

[Gtan7]

Steve Vai on his injuriy history, note surgical bandage on one hand, other shoulder is immobilized...

Funny video, not actually a huge amount of info but once he had disks removed by orthoped surgeon David Roth, does that ring a bell? More importantly, he talks about posture/position and says to not let the docs pump you full of cortisone repeatedly (cortisone is like super duper advil, all of a sudden you're 100% pain free and so you think you can go back at surfing/guitar/alligator wrestling 100% but the underlying imbalance is still there.

 

[Go To Bed Jessica]

Cortisone once or twice, yeah - it can be useful to interrupt the cycle of inflammation - but cortisone repeatedly is just bad news. If you're having it repeatedly for the same thing, then you're just band-aiding the problem and not fixing it.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I had an 8 string LTD for a few months. Totally loved it. Upgraded lots of stuff on it to make it super amazing. But I always woke up the next day feeling like I was punching a brick wall the night before. I had to say goodbye to it and then the pain vanished.

Here's a video I have of it, at least I have the memory:

 

[Emperoff]

I'm gonna go devil's advocate here and go against the grain. If playing 8-strings causes you pain, stop doing it. Simple as that.

Every time a thread like this appears, people all jump into telling you your technique is wrong, etc. But everybody's body is different. And definetely you shouldn't feel embarrassed to give up on 8 strings for your body limitations, as you say. Health always comes first, and you can still make plenty of good music with a 7-string.

We can look at it the way we want it, but 8-string necks are quite wide and strain our hands more than smaller necks. Some people can get away with it perfectly (same as people that can play with their guitars at knee height with no pain), but others just cannot. And there's no shame in that. What would be a shame would be needing surgery due to ignoring the warnings your body is sending.

 

[Jeries]

I'm gonna go devil's advocate here and go against the grain. If playing 8-strings causes you pain, stop doing it. Simple as that.

Every time a thread like this appears, people all jump into telling you your technique is wrong, etc. But everybody's body is different. And definetely you shouldn't feel embarrassed to give up on 8 strings for your body limitations, as you say. Health always comes first, and you can still make plenty of good music with a 7-string.

We can look at it the way we want it, but 8-string necks are quite wide and strain our hands more than smaller necks. Some people can get away with it perfectly (same as people that can play with their guitars at knee height with no pain), but others just cannot. And there's no shame in that. What would be a shame would be needing surgery due to ignoring the warnings your body is sending.

TBH in all fairness - this is EXACTLY what my doctor said...

Ive been trying the recommendations here all week and after reintroducing it slowly, it’s not even Saturday and I’m feeling a tendinitis like sluggish fatigue and loss of muscle power in my fretting hand, which is what happened before I started to feel the tingling sensation and subsequent shocks on my funny bone to my left pinky and ring fingers ....

I think I’m throwing in the towel tomorrow, I’m not risking injury - as you all noted, my lively hood was always dependent on 7 strings and I’ll revert to what isn’t a professional disaster route

Thanks for all the help, but I’m not physically able, and that’s just something I have to accept regrettably and embarrassingly.

thanks for the support my friends

 

[BenSolace]

Sucks to hear about stuff like this, just good that you can still play guitar full stop (sorry, I'm on a glass half full trip today). Might be a good opportunity to try some alternate tunings on 7s, perhaps like SikTh do on their 6s where they tune just the lowest string down to match the next string up, only an octave lower (scale length permitting). I know I prefer tuning my 6s that way as opposed to using even a seven string as it forces different writing habits out of me.

Hope it all works out in the end.

P.S. If anyone's already said about this in the thread I've missed it, my bad!

 

[odibrom]

TBH in all fairness - this is EXACTLY what my doctor said...

Ive been trying the recommendations here all week and after reintroducing it slowly, it’s not even Saturday and I’m feeling a tendinitis like sluggish fatigue and loss of muscle power in my fretting hand, which is what happened before I started to feel the tingling sensation and subsequent shocks on my funny bone to my left pinky and ring fingers ....

I think I’m throwing in the towel tomorrow, I’m not risking injury - as you all noted, my lively hood was always dependent on 7 strings and I’ll revert to what isn’t a professional disaster route

Thanks for all the help, but I’m not physically able, and that’s just something I have to accept regrettably and embarrassingly.

thanks for the support my friends

Hey, I'm late to this party and I'm sure most have already said their lines.

YOU SHOULD NOT FEEL EMBARRASSED FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO PLAY AN 8 STRINGER.

... doesn't matter the reason, you don't owe anyone any justification, you are no less nor more than those who can, just different, you are YOU.

Think of it like this, even the pro/master piano players have limitations due to their hand sizes. Generally, some ladies can't play some songs because their hands are too small. Chords with voicings beyond the octave are a nightmare for most and sometimes can only be achieved through arpeggio techniques (which obviously is not the same as playing the chord at once), and it's not because they aren't good enough, it's just that it is physically impossible for them, they just don't have the reach.

Nevertheless, as @BenSolace have suggested, this is only an excuse to get more 7 string guitars to use with different tunings.

... and cheer up, you're living the dream of living out of your guitar playing (as far as I understood), you must be doing something right, right?

 

[Jeries]

I do appreciate that my friend. (And thanks for the Alnico suggestion from the pup thread as well dude)