Most overrated player

[Lickers]

this entire thread is about opinions and personal preferences so im not quite sure what you're trying to say there.

^ taken from the first post of the thread.

i think you're letting your own opinions of Chuck and Dime get in the way, if you notice im probably the fourth or fifth person who has mentioned Dime as being overrated.

saying they wrote a cool riff here and there isn't naive, its my opinion. just because they were innovators doesn't mean i have to regard them as legends or enjoy their playing.

My feelings are irrelevant as I'm looking at this objectively. Which is my point.
Please don't feel I'm making thie personal as there have been other detractors - none have really replied as much as you. I genuinely thought you were being 'controversial' in your earlier post, hence me quoting it.

What I'm trying to say - or more accurately, what I'd hope to see is that people would either give an empricial reason as to why said guitarist was over-rated.
What could be a very interesting topic is currenlty being debased with conjecture and is doing us all no favours at all. I've learned a few new things in this thread and I'd like the opportunity to learn some more.

There's plenty of guitarists that I think aren't up to much in many repsects for a variety of reasons, but they have the requisite ability and quality of output to have garnered the success from the market and more importantly, their peers.
I've not mentioned any guitarists up to this point, purely because I didn't feel there was any real need to. However, as an example...

...I was a huge Metallica fan as a kid (the reason I got into playing in the first place) so have a huge amount of respect for both James and Kirk - moreso James as I identified with his playing and writing abilities more than Kirk.

As far as I am concerned, both of these are now shadows of their former selves. If they were to break through now, most people wouldn't give them a second look.
James has oversimplified the core of the songs and his writing and has lost the edge that he had over any other rhythm guitarist/songwriter in the genre. There were some excellent technical moments of the black album but these have been few and far between since then. Load and Reload were especially poor when directly compared to their predecessors.

Kirk has proven to be exceptionally lazy over the years. He is relying on the same technique and approach (especially live) with virtually exclusive use of pentatonics and wah pedal as a filter to mitigate poor fretting and note choice for the last 15 years or so. Even his rhythm playing has taken a step back.
However, I respect the fact they are responsible for some amazing music and performances over the years so I can't wholeheartedly judge them on based on their current output.

AJFA was essentially the last true Metallica record. The intelligence of their compositional ability has very much been diluted which is no doubt a a result of the loss of Cliff (who was very influential and skilled in this area) and appealing to a more mainstream market following the success of their self-titled 'black' album.
It's a shame, but there's plenty of other good music out there to enjoy and it won't stop me enjoying their earlier work which is rich in excellent music

 

[Addison90]

I REPEAT, that people who have listened to guitar music and in a big range of names through the years, will understand what I am talking about.

Please don't flame me for the Govan thing, and if you think about it most of the admirers can't even alternate pick a major scale as 16th notes at 120bmp!!

I totally respect your opinion.. but this one?

Below are some quotes from his "admirers":

Paul Gilbert: "I miss the days when I was growing up and great guitar playing had a wider appeal. The best guitar players were often in huge bands. I went to see Van Halen play in arenas again and again when I was a kid. Now it’s little more niche-ified. You'’ve got a guy like Guthrie Govan, who’s an amazing guitar player, but he’s only known to other guitar players."

Paul Gilbert: “Guthrie Govan gives shred a good name. It's absolutely heartwarming to hear someone play super fast and have musical depth to match!"

Ron Bumblefoot Thal: "Guthrie is the most-talented guitarist I've ever known, a great friend, and I'm honored to have contributed to his album. Thank you Guthrie, for the wonderful music and all you are."

Richie Kotzen: "Guthrie Govan can do anything he wants as a guitarist. He has total command over the instrument; I love to watch Guthrie live as he always plays something new that the rest of us would never have thought of. He is truly a gifted musician."

Mattias IA Eklundh: "Unlike some other super-duper all-around guitarists, Guthrie is anything but a chameleon. Whatever he sinks his teeth into, you can tell it’s him instantly.”

Reb Beach: "The 'Erotic Cakes' CD is excellent. It doesn't get much better than that, does it? I stopped trying to improve years ago because of people like him. I love his melodies, which is rare for me when I hear other guitarists: so effortless. He is the most well rounded yet stunning guitarist I've ever heard."

Dweezil Zappa: "Every time I hear Guthrie play I feel like I have to fasten my seatbelt. He is an alien. His technique and execution is staggering. Ultimately what is most impressive about him is his musicality. He has total freedom on guitar..."

5:58 onwards:

YouTube Sensations - Andy McKee, Guthrie Govan, Joe Robinson - YouTube

Allan Holdsworth: To my ear he sounds awful, the notes he plays just sound like useless dribble. What people describe as unique phrasing just sounds like poor note choice.

That's like saying the notes that John Coltrane or Michael Brecker plays just sounds like useseless dribble. If you don't like it even a little bit, you probably don't like jazz.

 

[drgamble]

Just a quick correction to this. Grunge never killed metal as so many of us believe. MTV did.

Kurt Cobain was never against heavy metal, nor did he want to become famous. His early acoustic stuff shows he was more into lofi/modern folk/manic depressive music. When Smells like teen spirit hit the airwaves in 1994 - that's when MTV picked it up and many copy cat bands sprung up - just like nu metal did for us in highschool. The mainstream just lapped it up as being new and out there.

if you don't believe me, here's an example. Metallica made a killing in tour sales throughout the 90's. Didn't matter that the radio stopped playing enter sandman halfway through the decade. Load and reload still sold insane amounts and it didn't stop them from performing at the grammy's in 1997. Metallica are second to U2 in tour sales for a major rock band.

Heavy metal was always underground - the stuff that was getting huge air play wasn't the most technical or groundbreaking music. It was guys with makeup, tight pants and crazy hair that was killing the airwaves. Do you honestly believe Slayer and death got airplay back in the 80's? It would've been motley crue, van halen, Guns and roses and bon jovi.

Metallica never really made it to radio until they released One. Before that, they absolutely turned down the notion of releasing singles, or videos. It was part of their whole marketing ploy.

Shortly before Smells Like Teen Spirit came out, you could find Slayer, Testament, Megadeth, Anthrax, etc. on the radio. A lot of those bands were made popular by Headbanger's Ball on MTV. Then the grunge thing came. Kurt Cobain was totally anti-metal and made fun of metal bands in a tongue in cheek sort of way. For the In Utero tour he made fun of the bands with the wall of Marshall's, by making it appear he was playing through a 15w mini stack. I think if you ask all of these metal guys, they will tell you that grunge killed them. No more radio, no MTV. Heck the labels didn't wanna touch them. Metallica survived by completely changing their sound. If they would have put out AJFA in 1991, their career would have been over. Furthermore, grunge didn't kill guitar solos, it changed them. Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains still had guitar solos, but they were much shorter and more concise. Nu-Metal is more responsible for the anti-guitar solo crowd. Looking at you Korn and Deftones.

 

[JPMike]

I totally respect your opinion.. but this one?

I know, trust me I like his music and everything a lot, but really it gets exaggerating that it becomes annoying. I guess, from a rock/shred/fusion point of view, I might be paranoid.

But If I see this from another point of view, I might actually be speaking for many people.

 

[Carver]

This Carver guy from canada, he sucks. but yet keeps blasting his stupid amp

 

[Louis Cypher]

I know, trust me I like his music and everything a lot, but really it gets exaggerating that it becomes annoying. I guess, from a rock/shred/fusion point of view, I might be paranoid.

But If I see this from another point of view, I might actually be speaking for many people.

Read what you have put bout him and I would be one of the ones you have been speaking for.... I just don't get it either with him..... possibly it is because he is one of those players that so many people ram down your throat how good he is and how god like he is, and god forbid you don't like him perhaps its that, I have never liked being told what to do or what to think, I'll make up my own mind, so perhaps I think he is overrated more because of his fans than because of himself..... Same sort of thing with Nirvana, part of the reason I never liked them was because so many people DID like them and MTV/Music Press/Guitar press kept telling me how I should love them.... just a thought.....

 

[Matt_D_]

weirds me out people suggesting talented musicians simply because they dont like them. (vai/guthrie/holdsworth/etc).

if you want overrated, I'm going with people who have no musicianship but are somehow famous or revered.
- the bass player from korn. seriously please just take your tika taka fret noise slappy bullshit and go away and never ever return
- anyone who was ever in oasis

 

[JustMac]

That Bulb guy everyone's wet about. People say he's "brown-jesus", but I don't see the appeal, he hasn't got an inch of the talent the likes of Paul Waggoner or Guthrie Govan. I know Bulb is worshiped here but don't flame my ass for it!

Matt Bellamy from Muse as well....grr!

 

[JPMike]

Read what you have put bout him and I would be one of the ones you have been speaking for.... I just don't get it either with him..... possibly it is because he is one of those players that so many people ram down your throat how good he is and how god like he is, and god forbid you don't like him perhaps its that, I have never liked being told what to do or what to think, I'll make up my own mind, so perhaps I think he is overrated more because of his fans than because of himself..... Same sort of thing with Nirvana, part of the reason I never liked them was because so many people DID like them and MTV/Music Press/Guitar press kept telling me how I should love them.... just a thought.....

Are we the same person or something? Exactly, my thought. Maybe it's my own reaction to the whole "you can't not like him", "he is like the super guitarist", "he can do whatever he wants with the guitar" thing or whatever.

I won't argue but the statements that were posted above by well-known players, if seen by other angles, might not be true opinions since they might not want to lose fans or get dissed by fans and guitarists alike. Also, those are statements by rock/"fusion" guitarists.

What about statements from Modern Jazz Monsters, like Mike Moreno, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Lage Lund, Julian Lage, Ben Monder, Nir Felder, Gillad Heskelman Peter Bernstein, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, George Benson, Allan Holdsworth and the list can go on forever. From players that can actually do whatever they want with the instrument in a frightening extent. What would they say? What would be their true opinion?? That's what I meant by saying seeing this in a different point of view.

 

[Chuck]

Oh it's all irrelevant anyway.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

3. he hasn't put together a memorable song so far.

Someone's never heard Lord's Resistance Army.

 

[VBCheeseGrater]

Jack White.. Just "meh" comes to mind

Kirk Hammett.. Never liked his solo's, ever

Kerry King.. Tight rhythm, but again never really got the solo's "trem wankery" comes to mind

IMHO ofcourse

Pretty good assessment here i agree with alot....allow me to retort/agree
Jack White - Songwriter and thats all, guitarist?? not so much
Hammett - His Kill em all solos i really loved. After that is was certain songs a the later albums - TBA was pretty solid (Struggle Within, Unforgiven, Of Wolf And Man). He definitely gets a ton of extra credit for being in metallica - but he must be doing something right to be a part of it.
King - Totally agree. never heard a slayer solo that sounded much like music really
Misha - haven't heard enough

 

[Decapitated666]

Misha is overrated. I personally dislike Periphery a whole lot. His riffs are cheesy and irritating. There, I said it. Send the hate mail.

 

[Decapitated666]

To add to the list:

Abasi
Vai
Buckethead
Malmsteen

 

[heregoesnothing]

People saying Holdsworth & Guthrie overrated makes me sad.. I mean, see my sig

I studied jazz harmony & composition, I liked them all for different reasons..

EDIT:

weirds me out people suggesting talented musicians simply because they dont like them. (vai/guthrie/holdsworth/etc).

if you want overrated, I'm going with people who have no musicianship but are somehow famous or revered.
- the bass player from korn. seriously please just take your tika taka fret noise slappy bullshit and go away and never ever return
- anyone who was ever in oasis

This, I think it's unfair to say someone's overrated just because their music is "boring" or "unpleasant" to your ears regardless of their extra-ordinary talent.. we all hear things so differently.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

People saying Holdsworth & Guthrie overrated makes me sad.. see my sig

I don't really like their music, but I think they're far from overrated.

Besides on some niche music forums like this one, how often do you see their names brought up?

 

[AdenM]

He may be one of the better in terms of technique, but most of his work does not interest me.

I totally understand that, thanks for clarifying. Some of his stuff is over my head/forced sometimes, but his technical ability is astounding IMO

 

[JPMike]

weirds me out people suggesting talented musicians simply because they dont like them. (vai/guthrie/holdsworth/etc).

The two guys besides, Govan, did something very original and still do. Govan has originality but he's not someone that's bringing new stuff in, something we have never heard before.

People saying Holdsworth & Guthrie overrated makes me sad.. I mean, see my sig
This, I think it's unfair to say someone's overrated just because their music is "boring" or "unpleasant" to your ears regardless of their extra-ordinary talent.. we all hear things so differently.

I never talked about Holdsworth, but I said it about Govan. Referring to someone with his first name, shows me that you actually like the guy's music a lot or him in general. But Metheny and Holdsworth have accomplished and brought so much into the music that Govan can only dream of accomplishing. Don't get me wrong I like Govan's playing and music, but I just don't get it why this mania around his name. I will never get near as good as him regarding my playing and musicianship, he's an amazing musician.

 

[JPMike]

Besides on some niche music forums like this one, how often do you see their names brought up?

So true!!

 

[wespaul]

Just a quick correction to this. Grunge never killed metal as so many of us believe. MTV did.

We can argue this for days. It would be like arguing what kills people, the gun or the bullet. It ultimately doesn't even matter.

Kurt Cobain was never against heavy metal, nor did he want to become famous. His early acoustic stuff shows he was more into lofi/modern folk/manic depressive music. When Smells like teen spirit hit the airwaves in 1994 - that's when MTV picked it up and many copy cat bands sprung up - just like nu metal did for us in highschool. The mainstream just lapped it up as being new and out there.

When Kurt Cobain was young, he was into heavy metal. In fact, he actually drew the Iron Maiden logo on the wall in his room when he was a teenager. It wasn't until later that he developed a hatred toward it. His first drummer (the name escapes me) had a record collection that had various speed metal records in it that completely pissed Kurt off when he was browsing them. I don't remember if he smashed them (it's been around 16 years since I've read those biographies), or just used it as ammunition to completely screw with the guy (like bull-rushing his drums at a live show).

But yeah, Kurt definitely wasn't a fan of heavy metal. Their popularity broke in 1991 with "Smells like Teen Spirit", not 1994. MTV was playing that video around the clock because the audience kept calling in requesting it. It was like nothing they'd ever experienced before, or since then. That's why whenever you watch an MTV top 50 or 100 music video list, "Smells like Teen Spirit" is #1 (haven't seen those lists in a while, though).

if you don't believe me, here's an example. Metallica made a killing in tour sales throughout the 90's. Didn't matter that the radio stopped playing enter sandman halfway through the decade. Load and reload still sold insane amounts and it didn't stop them from performing at the grammy's in 1997. Metallica are second to U2 in tour sales for a major rock band.

The radio still plays "Enter Sandman" to this day, so I'm not sure what you mean with that statement. The Black Album made Metallica a juggernaut that propelled them to Rolling Stones status where they could tour wherever and whenever they want and always have a huge demand.

Heavy metal was always underground - the stuff that was getting huge air play wasn't the most technical or groundbreaking music. It was guys with makeup, tight pants and crazy hair that was killing the airwaves. Do you honestly believe Slayer and death got airplay back in the 80's? It would've been motley crue, van halen, Guns and roses and bon jovi.

They absolutely were on the radio. You're going to have an underground scene no matter what style of music you're into. Yes, you had your hair metal bands, but you also had your regular metal, and thrash metal on the radio, too. No, they didn't share the same mainstream appeal that Bill Idol had, but they were still out there, and much more prevalent than in the 90s, when Pantera was pushing a new, heavier style of music to the mass audience.

I grew up in the 80s, and I remember so many people having Iron Maiden patches on their jackets. I also remember seeing tons of Metallica logos carved on tables, and homemade Slayer shirts. The kids were in love with heavy metal. A few years into the 90s, that effectively died. I didn't see anybody wearing Iron Maiden patches, or making their own Slayer shirts. It was like the whole world turned into flannel and Cross Colours orange shorts (which I'm ashamed to admit that I owned a pair ). I wasn't really conscious of the switch, but looking back, it's amazing to see how the landscape changed.