My Blackmachine "Inspired" Guitar By Guitar Fusion Customs

[Marty Siggery]

I find this an interesting thread. I've been getting a lot of emails over the last couple of years from people asking me to copy Blackmachine's. It's interesting in respect of how acceptable it seems to be to copy them so closely. I've been copying 'tele', les paul, PRS and the usually standard stuff for years but have always said no to copying Blackmachine. My 7 and 8 string guitars are reletavily close in that I have a reverse headstock that is extremely close to 'Parker Fly's and I have RG style bodies, Jackson Soloist style bodies but I'm not sure where to draw the line on how close you get to another makers stuff? Maybe someone could advise me?

 

[UnderTheSign]

I find this an interesting thread. I've been getting a lot of emails over the last couple of years from people asking me to copy Blackmachine's. It's interesting in respect of how acceptable it seems to be to copy them so closely. I've been copying 'tele', les paul, PRS and the usually standard stuff for years but have always said no to copying Blackmachine. My 7 and 8 string guitars are reletavily close in that I have a reverse headstock that is extremely close to 'Parker Fly's and I have RG style bodies, Jackson Soloist style bodies but I'm not sure where to draw the line on how close you get to another makers stuff? Maybe someone could advise me?

As close as you feel comfortable doing. Blatantly copying other small builders' stuff won't get you liked by their following, but in the end it's all up to you. As long as there's no copyright on a certain shape, I *assume* you can do whatever you want with it.

 

[AeonSolus]

I copied it mainly because i love blackmachine's aesthetic and concept, but could never justify paying an absurd amount of euros in my current economic situation, so i had it done, It's not like francis is introducing it as a regular model in his line, or will do it this close anymore to anyone because of how much he respects doug, it was more of a challenge and a friendship pact between me and him. so yeah, at the end of the day it comes to your own decision

 

[Marty Siggery]

Thanks for the input. The whole copying thing has always confused me. Gibson take PRS to court over single cutaway's guitars yet they bring out a Hendrix signature Strat? Jackson take ESP to court over a Headstock, yet they make Strats with Fender style headstocks? (Adrian Smith Signature Model) Go figure!!
I appreciate the advice. Thanks

 

[Marty Siggery]

I copied it mainly because i love blackmachine's aesthetic and concept, but could never justify paying an absurd amount of euros in my current economic situation, so i had it done, It's not like francis is introducing it as a regular model in his line, or will do it this close anymore to anyone because of how much he respects doug, it was more of a challenge and a friendship pact between me and him. so yeah, at the end of the day it comes to your own decision

Makes total sense and I don't think is a problem at all

 

[UnderTheSign]

Thanks for the input. The whole copying thing has always confused me. Gibson take PRS to court over single cutaway's guitars yet they bring out a Hendrix signature Strat? Jackson take ESP to court over a Headstock, yet they make Strats with Fender style headstocks? (Adrian Smith Signature Model) Go figure!!
I appreciate the advice. Thanks

If I'm correct, Strats and Tele shapes have become availble to use. Something to do with copyrightt/trademarking.
(warning, long post about random copyright/shape stuff ahead, skip if you don't care)
Here's something Neal Moser said on the Gibson/PRS issue a few years ago, took it from a random post on his forum.

The Gibson VRS PRS is a perfect example of "infringement". Gibson believed they were being infringed upon with the PRS Single Cut design. The Single Cut design is certainly close enough to a Les Paul for Gibson to FEEL they were being infringed upon, however, the judge in the case had a different opinion. PRS won. Depending on the judge, it could have gone either way. Actually, it DID go the other way the first time around. So, my point is proven.
This post was made after someone had copied one of his shapes - this is part of the e-mail he sent the builder.
They mostly believe in this 10% rule. If your design is 10% different than the one you are "spinning from", then you're OK, This is not the case, there IS NO 10% rule. The rule is "Infringement". This means that if your design looks enough like another design, you MAY be infringing on someone else's design. This now becomes a "coin toss". If you continue to use the design, then the company who believes you are INFRINGING may sue you and let the court decide. NOW, having gone through this, I can tell you that just the cost for the lawyers can be as much as $50,000 and you may not win. ;-) You can be RIGHT and still spend a TON of money proving it, more than you would EVER make on the guitar in question.

In another topic, someone asked...

Ok, this post leads to the question,, How much does a design have to differ before no infringement on copyright exists ?

I mean if the “ footprint " of the body shape is say 10 % different is he free and clear to build it ?

Its one thing if he takes a name already " registered " it is another to approximate a shape

I have seen, in my line of work many lawsuits that were won or lost ( depending on what side your on ) based on % of footprint ie 10 % min ect

When do shapes become public domain ? Even basic shapes like the Les Paul, V, and Strat style have been copied to death in some variation and some quite minute in % yet rival manufactures feel free to build.

To which Neal answered
Well, to start with, despite what most people think, there is NO 10% rule. Infringement is judged by whether a customer will be confused by what he sees. If a guitar is so close to the original that a customer can't tell the difference then it would be infringement. However, when it comes to VERY unique guitars such as the Bastard V, Bich, Beast, Morpheus, Scythe......etc, then it is far easier to prove infringement. You need to change more than a small part OR the headstock of a guitar to get around a trade mark.

It is my understanding, with guitars like Gibson and Fender, you can make a far smaller change and get away with it. This is proven out by all the near copies and even almost perfect copies of guitars offered by these two giant companies.

The more unique a design, the easier it is to prove infringement.

Again, I could be wrong about this, but I got the information from a very reliable sourse. If you make a Les Paul that is larger, like the one we built for Lurch, then it would pass. Probably why we haven't gotten any nasty letters about building that guitar. :wink:

IMHO, the best way to NOT INFRINGE, is to get a little creativity and design something truly NEW and stop relying on companies like MCS and BC Rich to steal designs from.

"Oh, I'll just change THIS ONE THING and everything will be OK". Don't hold your breath and don't count on it. :wink:

One thing that guys who copy guitar shapes don't realize is that it takes a LOT of time, money and trouble to create, build and trade mark and new and unique design and frankly, after you've gone through all that, to see someone knock it off is REALLY irritating.

As far as how long a trade marks last, I can't give you an exact amount of time, I know there is one, but as far as Fender goes, they gave up on trying to protect the Strat shape a long time ago. However, use the Strat headstock on one of your guitar lines and then advertise it and see how long it takes to get a C&D letter. :wink:

Hope that explains it a little. 8)

I haven't seen (much) mention of the "10% rule" on here, just thought this might be interesting to some of you.

Another interesting piece by Jay aka Cyclonic...

from what i have researched......headstock designs are permanent trade mark to a company but body shape becomes public domain after 50 years

ALSO the rights to those shapes MUST upheld by a yearly production of a certain number and/or still be in business.

so strats,teles,lp's,lp2's,semi-hollow and hollow jazz bodied guitars(ie 335 or gretch) the gibson explorer and flying V have all been around for over 50 years........in 2012 the sg comes into play.

Hope that gave you some insight in the PRS/Gibson etc matter

 

[Marty Siggery]

That's interesting reading and quite an insight. I guess common sense and some morals is the key. It doesn't seem totally black and white and is a debate that could be argued with so many manufacture's of guitars. I worked for Fernandes for a few years, in the UK they had to be careful with Gibson/Fender copies but in Japan, anything goes! I have a few of their Japanese catalogs from the late 90's and every Gibson you could imagine is copied 100 per cent, but over here in the UK, they wouldn't ship anything Gibson style
Thanks for taking the time to message all that stuff

 

[UnderTheSign]

This is just a guess, but it probably has something to do with the overzeas laws. I don't know if you've ever seen companies like RAN, Lootnik, etc, but they've copied a LOAD of other companies' shapes.
Why? Because they can. Within the USA, you'd just send out a Cease & Desist letter. However, the law in some other countries simply allows/permits them to copy trademarked/copyrighted shapes.

 

[Invader]

Jackson take ESP to court over a Headstock, yet they make Strats with Fender style headstocks? (Adrian Smith Signature Model) Go figure!!

Fender owns Jackson so it's perfectly normal.

This is what the Jackson "strat" headstock looked like before Fender ownership.

 

[Marty Siggery]

Fender owns Jackson so it's perfectly normal.

This is what the Jackson "strat" headstock looked like before Fender ownership.

I knew that and totally forgot, yea that does make it ok. Can't believe I forgot that. What a dumbass

 

[AeonSolus]

This is just a guess, but it probably has something to do with the overzeas laws. I don't know if you've ever seen companies like RAN, Lootnik, etc, but they've copied a LOAD of other companies' shapes.
Why? Because they can. Within the USA, you'd just send out a Cease & Desist letter. However, the law in some other countries simply allows/permits them to copy trademarked/copyrighted shapes.

I think that it's a marketing matter, when you as a company for example, start to market a Infringeable body shape as YOURS things get a little Icky, but as a custom shop i think it is diferent, you're being payed to build whatever the customer tells you to build. a good example of that is what happened to RondoMusic, Rondo was sued by PRS for having a model that didn't differ much from one of their regular line, but why don't they sue people like RAN or other custom shops that copy their designs on daily basis?

 

[Marty Siggery]

I think that it's a marketing matter, when you as a company for example, start to market a Infringeable body shape as YOURS things get a little Icky, but as a custom shop i think it is diferent, you're being payed to build whatever the customer tells you to build. a good example of that is what happened to RondoMusic, Rondo was sued by PRS for having a model that didn't differ much from one of their regular line, but why don't they sue people like RAN or other custom shops that copy their designs on daily basis?

I think that is correct as Roger Sadowsky emailed me a few years ago regarding two basses I had built. When I explained that they were not in production and purely to the customers requirements, he accepted that and was totally fine with it

Siggery Custom Bass 5 String Roadbass

 

[Marty Siggery]

I'll dig the email out and attach it later

 

[UnderTheSign]

I think that it's a marketing matter, when you as a company for example, start to market a Infringeable body shape as YOURS things get a little Icky, but as a custom shop i think it is diferent, you're being payed to build whatever the customer tells you to build. a good example of that is what happened to RondoMusic, Rondo was sued by PRS for having a model that didn't differ much from one of their regular line, but why don't they sue people like RAN or other custom shops that copy their designs on daily basis?

Like I said, not just a marketing matter - (I hope someone with more law knowledge or from the area can chime in on this one) but it's very easy for a USA based company to sue another USA based company. Due to international and country-specific laws, like I said in my previous post, it's much harder to sue an Eastern European builder.

IMO - even if you're a custom shop, I'd contact the original builder/designer first to see if it's OK for me to build one. I agree with Neal Moser on this part, it's integrity and morale.

That said, you and Marty might be correct on one offs vs production models.

 

[SavM]

Awesome! How does it play? Pics pleaaaassse damnit lol!

 

[AeonSolus]

by far the best guitar i've ever owned or played! honestly makes my EBMM JP6 feel like garbage thing is i'm too lazy and busy right now to take a pic, after this saturday i'll take some, thing is we're currently hosting a metal fest in my town and i'm one of the dudes behind courtains

 

[SavM]

Ahhhhh, Tease

 

[ToniS]

Can't wait for the pics dude!

 

[ToniS]

piiiics

 

[eddiewarlock]

Pics!!!