Neck Scale for 6,7,8?

[Dave Camarillo]

I searched scale and didn't find too much.

I was wondering your experiences on neck scale for 6, 7 and 8 string guitars. What is the effect on tone, tuning as well as hand size?

I appreciate the information.

 

[Ram150023]

From what i have gathered... scale lengthens your fret board... the string tensions change with this as well... the only issues i can forsee is if you are used to a 25.5" and go to a 28.6" scale... the travel your hand makes is much greater thus having to adjust your "muscle memory" to accomodate... but it depends on the player.

I think "baritone" guitars have a longer scale than a normal... which gives you a lower, deeper tone to the guitar, plus a longer scale is nice for drop tunings... example... my 6 string Warlock (25.5") dropped to B is very floppy hence the need for thicker strings to make up for the loss of tension... my 7 string Douglas is a 27.5" scale and playing in B is no problem with normal strings...

But i could be wrong on many levels here... just learning and diving into the "finer details" about guitars...

 

[djohns74]

Ram's pretty much got the basics down. Scale length is simply the distance between the saddles and the nut, or the vibrating length of the string. The term "scale length" is most likely derived from the fact that as you increase this length, the distance from any one fret to the next is "scaled" upward as well.

An increase in scale length from the typical 25.5" to 27" represents a change of about 6%, which means that the individual frets will also be about 6% farther apart. As such, some stretches that your fretting hand might be used to will now be a bit longer. Obviously, the impact of this is increased the longer the scale gets, and the effect is most noticable around the lowest frets.

The effect all this has on tuning and tone is a little trickier to describe. It all really comes down to tension in the end. Given exactly the same strings in the same tuning, the strings on the longer scaled guitar will be under higher tension. Some people prefer different levels of tension, high or low, for purely feel reasons. Others hear a difference in tone, especially with the higher gauge strings generally used to achieve very low tunings. The theory there is that if a huge string doesn't sound good to your ears, you can use a longer scale and get away with a thinner string to achieve the same level of tension and tuning.

I have some practical examples in my collection. I typically play 6 string guitars (a couple of 7s) with 25.5" scale lengths and lighter to medium strings (9s or 10s). I picked up an Agile 8 string that, at the time, only came in a 28.625" scale length. The first six strings on this guitar are a regular set of 9s and are in standard tuning. Interestingly, I find that bending a string a given amount feels exactly the same as bending the same gauge string the same amount on a 25.5" guitar. It requires no more strength to perform the bend. However, the resulting increase in pitch is smaller. I end up having to bend the string farther to get the same increase in pitch, and that then gets to be more of a challenge.

As an experiment, I decided to slap a reguar set of 9s on a 30" scale OLP MM5 that I've had sitting around untouched with stupid thick strings on it. I tuned it to standard, somewhat expecting the strings to be under so much tension that they would barely move. Surprisingly, this is not the case at all, though once again, I have to bend yet farther to get a certain pitch increase. Now, I'm not saying that the tension on the strings isn't higher because physics clearly states otherwise. However, I no longer believe that describing the strings purely in terms of tension at rest really tells the whole story.

Obviously, in both cases, the other issue is stretching between the lowest frets. I'm primarily a rhythm player (Metallica-type rhythms), so I spend a lot of time down there. At 30", I most definitely notice that the frets are farther apart, but once I've been playing for a minute or two, it ceases to be an issue. My playing is largely unaffected by it, other than the fact that when I switch back to a 25.5" guitar, the damn thing feels like a toy for a few minutes. Incidentally, I would say that I have strictly average size hands. A person with smaller hands may well have a tougher time adapting.

Okay, sorry for the rambling post. This is a subject I have a fair amount of interest in myself and I've been giving scale lengths and the benefits thereof a fair amount of thought lately, especially since my experiments with a 30" scale. Hopefully, my experience provides some degree of insight.

 

[zeal0us]

Excellent post, Dave! Tons of accurate information and relevant observations there.

 

[technomancer]

Tone changes at longer scale lengths are more than just changes in string gauge. The tone of the strings changes considerably. Lower strings gain punch and clarity at longer scale lengths but the higher strings get more thin and piano like. Some like this sound, I personally don't. This was true even for example with the 9s I had on both my 28.625" scale 8 and my 25.5" 6.

I definitely prefer the sound of shorter scale guitars for leads / higher register playing. I've found 25.5" to be fine for standard tuned 7s, but really haven't liked the low F# on an 8 at less than 28.625". Even at 28.625" the amp needs to be dialed in specifically to handle something that low

Then again I'm picky

 

[vampiregenocide]

I've never found longer scales on guitars to mess with my head, its only bass scales like 35" that start to mess me up.

Tone wise, longer scales get brighter and in some cases more shrill high register, but because the tension is greater this can lead to a subconsious change in technique which also changes tone. I like thin strings, so a bit longer scale is good for me. Not too long though.

I feel pretty much the same as Steve. I would use a shorter scale instrument for cleans/leads and a longer scale for rythms to combat this change in tone.

I'd get either 25.5 or 26.5 for a 6er (drop C), 27" for 7 strings (drop A/Ab/G) and either 27 or 28 for an 8 string in F (Though at 27 the F is still a bit loose with a 0.68 I find). Those are my prefences.

 

[Dave Camarillo]

Amazing guys. I am learning a lot thanks. I am looking into a custom 8 and I started this thread to learn more about scale for that 8.

is, and I know this is opinion, 27 a versatile length for an 8 string? Will that allow flexibility in tuning? Or do I need to go longer?

Again, thanks.

 

[Origin]

Agile 8s have a 28.625" scale, which kind of pissed me off as I'm used to 25.5. Doing a standard sweep from the 5th fret on the A string became less of a breeze and more of a hassle -_- I ended up selling it for that reason. I'm going to buy an rg2228, which should provide me with a lot less difficulty at 27". I have long spindly fingers, but my hands themselves ain't too large, so I'm overall about average amount of reach.

 

[vampiregenocide]

Amazing guys. I am learning a lot thanks. I am looking into a custom 8 and I started this thread to learn more about scale for that 8.

is, and I know this is opinion, 27 a versatile length for an 8 string? Will that allow flexibility in tuning? Or do I need to go longer?

Again, thanks.

If you're tuning B-A its fine, but I think 27.5 maybe 28 would give a little more tension to the low F# without you needing to whack a 0.74 on there, unless you're fine with a 74 in which case 27" scale should be fine.

 

[iondestroyer1527]

i loved my 2228 and hated both agiles i had because of the scale...for me it was just too long. i now have the ltd FM-418 which is a 25.5 scale 8. i feel that with a higher gauge f# string it makes up for lost tension in the scale...otherwise it's the same as any other guitar. i tune a half a step down to f and then standard off of that with an .080 and have no issue yet sounds sweet...but the 27 IS more versatile and not as difficult to get used to as the 28.625".IMO.

 

[Dave Camarillo]

What about strings? For the longer necks do you have to custom order longer strings?

 

[djohns74]

What about strings? For the longer necks do you have to custom order longer strings?

Seems to depend on headstock layout and brand of strings. My 28.625" Intrepid has the 4x4 headstock and I no major issues with string length. There certainly wasn't much extra length for the A string since that tuner is farthest from the bridge, but it still worked fine. I don't remember how much extra there was, but it's wrapped around at least two full times. They're standard Ernie Ball guitar strings, by the way.

This thread also talks about specific issues with 8-in-line reverse headstocks and long scales.

 

[Lasik124]

I own a 28 and 5/8 Scale Agile And Dig it.

I think the scale length accommodates the F# Very well Especially since half the time I like to tune it to E instead(Lots of cool things can be done with this)

Now yes I do notice a difference, I don't mind it, There are some points where I don't like it but never to the point where I actually mind, I just say wow that lick was a stretch and keep playing!

I would like to try a 27" Scale and see how it holds up.

As far as the one I'm currently working with, I do notice the Higher Register strings being more "Shrill" sounding but in a sense, hey I Like that! Its different you know? I mean its cool having different guitars that have different sounds and feelings to them.

Another cool thing about this scale length is its actually easy to do some things up in the Higher frets due to some more room.

All and all I've found I can make all the chords I commonly use on a 25.5 Scale on a 28.625, although on some but not often occasions a bit more tricky, its no sweat!

I dig it, and am glad I took the chance! And oh one more thing, Learn to shred on a large scale...And you can Super Shred on a 25.5

Hope I helped with some stuff Take care!

 

[guitarplayerone]

to throw in my i have the smallest hands and fingers out of any guitarist i've ever encountered, and 28 5/8" scale seemed like nothing to me. the only thing which i found difficult on that scale is doing a major add9 chord or 'petrucci powerchord' on the first fret. however, that's a really rare situation and imo at least a 30" scale is required to properly intonate that F#. finally, i think that if you have a 7 as well as an 8, or six as well as an 8, it isnt' a bad idea not to so much go for a swiss-army knife sort of guitar. for live use, its just a little bit more uncomfortable, but for recording purposes, just use the other guitars which are 'better' at that. finally, after having tried a 28 5/8" interceptor yesterday, the overall tone is really so much barely brighter on that guitar.... certainly a tone knob with a capacitor would help. or an eq. but the difference really isn't that noticeable to me. however, this was on a bolt-on mahogany bodied interceptor, so perhaps the tone does get a bit brighter with a neckthrough model. however, imo if you play guitar with your fretting hand more or less in 'classical position' you'll have no problem with either the idea of an 8 string or an extended scale length. the main point is though, its not going to be a 24.75" les paul, nor would you really be doing the same things with it as you might with said les paul. there are inherent design compromises (especially for those of us without spaghetti fingers) and advantages to the extra strings+longer scale length.

if i had to do everything over though, i'd definitely just get a 27" seven-string. imo the difference is barely noticeable in finger placement, but that's just my opinion.

i think at the end of the day you just really have to go out and find guitars with the scale length you're interested in and try them lol. there's really no other way around it, as the way that you pick, the way that you fret, and your own personal style and decision-making skills will really affect what you are comfortable with or not. before yesterday i was a little dubious about 28 5/8" scale, now i know i'd definitely be fully comfortable with it, and would prefer 30" if i could get it

 

[steffgang]

I own a 30" interceptor bolt-on ash for two weeks now. I was using a 7 string crappy 25.5" Washburn for five years and it was the guitar that made me think that 25.5 is not enough for a proper low B - 27 or at least a 26.5 is the thing on a 7-string. With that in mind I was and still am convinced that a 28 3/4 " is a compromise for a low F. The 30" scale reproduces the low F with a proper punch and clearness. It is now equipped with a 74 for the F and 54 for the B versus a 59 for the B on my 25.5" 7 string. Comparing the sound of the low B the 7 sound like it is the end of the world tone - without even half the clearness of the 30" while the same low B (it is actually a Bb on both guitars) sounds full of punch and aggressive but leaves you with the idea that you can go lower. I definitely disagree that you can use a 25.5 8 string with some 80+ gauge string and make it sound with a proper low F tone and even a correct intonation - sounds like an absurd to me!

About the playability of a 30" - it is a completely different instrument to me. The difference is huge but I wouldn't say it is less comfortable - it just requires getting used to it. The sound of the 30" scale is just great sparkling high strings!

 

[Fred]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, considering Steffgang's talking about my old guitar, I agree with a lot of what he says. I've now owned guitars ranging from 24.75" to 30" scale lengths, and the difference on those lower strings is hugely noticeable. There's a reason fanned-fret instruments exist!

For 6-strings, I would always go for 25.5" - much as I adore my Kramer, 24.75" is just a bit too short for me.
For 7-strings, I would either go for 27" or a 25.5-27" fan.
For 8-strings, I guess most likely a 27-30" fan, but then again I'm highly unlikely to go for another 8-string, so that's not too relevant!

 

[alvaro]

Interesting thread... i am also planning to switch to 8-string world (Bulb has the guilt), and i am concerned about not getting adapted to an excesive scale lenght switch, due that i have only played 25,5'' scale guitars and i don't have the chance to try before buy (i am also left handed).

Mainly i can't decide between 27'' and 28.625''. For those who have passed through that change, is it a big deal switching from 25.5'' to 28.625''?

P.S. My hands are not too big. I am mainly a metal rhythm player though occasionally play quick licks.