Need opinions - my 2nd guitarist won't use any other amp than...

[budda]

Our singer was the reason we were 125dB .

But yes placebo is one hell of a drug.

 

[TheBolivianSniper]

... are people this dum? does that really work?

this is literally something I was taught as part of my degree, that and the "producer knobs" to get people in the room to fuck off while you're tracking

 

[Iron1]

It's also why so many sound engineers hate musicians. It's hard to remain objective for a lot of players when it comes to their instrument. Every guitarist/drummer/bassist/vocalist that has never mixed a record or a live show wants their instrument 3dB louder than everything else because its what they listen for, even if doing so would objectively make the whole thing sound like shit.

You're not wrong. I've been on both sides of that, but have ultimately believed education goes a lot further than deception.

 

[wheresthefbomb]

I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.

Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.

I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I only read the first page of this so my apologies if it’s been said already, but maybe the dude is hard up for cash and him sticking with his gear is a way to not get into that discussion.

I know I went a good decade where I was using a Peavey XXL head and kept saying “Man, this thing just works for everything I need it for” when in reality, I was broke with no way of getting a different amp and just didn’t want to admit I was broke.

 

[GunpointMetal]

You're not wrong. I've been on both sides of that, but have ultimately believed education goes a lot further than deception.

True, and if there's time and money for that, that's usually the first option. You also get to read people and you'll know if it's worth "educating" the bassist on why he's not the loudest thing in the mix or just letting him think he is after you spend a day tracking.

I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.

Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.

I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.

100% IME (my bassist is career professional FOH and monitor engineer for several of the larger venues in town) studio and live engineers love nothing more than an accurate day sheet with an input list for each band and some description of the setup a day or two ahead of a show. The only time I've really experience any tension is either when the sound guy thinks his job is to dictate the sound of the band instead of the sound of the room, or the show is in an area that has a hard dB limit and some random doom dad is mad he can't run all four of his 4x12s at top volume.

 

[Iron1]

I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.

Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.

I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.

Smart man.

I used to gig with a JCM900 atop two Carvin 412s and it just wouldn't sound good unless it was turned past 8. The best soundman in our area at the time always made it sound great for the crowd. One of the other's we had to work with from time to time would always storm up on stage with an attitude and turn the amp down to 2 and huff off back to the soundboard. Then, I'd just turn it right back up again. Same clubs, same gear, different sound guys, different results.

The real difference: the great sound guy would partner with you to get the best sound - and we ALWAYS got compliments on how awesome it sounded when he was behind the board. The other guy treated us like we were kids who just took a steaming dump in his wheaties - and fans would say stuff like "that wasn't your best gig" or "that didn't sound as good as the last show..."

 

[GunpointMetal]

this is literally something I was taught as part of my degree, that and the "producer knobs" to get people in the room to fuck off while you're tracking

I've seen someone go as far as sending a track to an empty channel, disabling the the channel output so it doesn't come out of the monitors but still shows a signal coming into any plugins, and letting a guitarist "do his own EQ". He was so happy with how it sounded even though nobody ever actually heard his EQ, but he could SEE it on the screen.

 

[Manurack]

his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.

My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.

Plot twist: Rev can stay late in the studio, burn midnight oil redoing all of the other guitar player's takes with the Marshall JCM 900 instead lol

If it sounds bad, get the engineer to EQ it afterwards to make it sound better?

 

[Ross82]

It's also why so many sound engineers hate musicians. It's hard to remain objective for a lot of players when it comes to their instrument. Every guitarist/drummer/bassist/vocalist that has never mixed a record or a live show wants their instrument 3dB louder than everything else because its what they listen for, even if doing so would objectively make the whole thing sound like shit.

Exactly.

Unless musicians have experience on both sides of the desk, having them in the room while you mix is almost always going to end badly. I wouldn't even let a band be in the studio when doing prelim mixes once I figured out this phenomenon. In my early years (before I knew better) everyone would be in the control room at the start of mix and sometimes, before the bus groups were even organized, band members would be putting their requests in for more fader time. Didn't take long for me to nix that BS.

As for live sound, I'd give people what they want in their monitors up to a point (as long as bleed-out wasn't an issue) because it's their preference to help the performance. One big gripe though, is people that spend 10 mins in SC tuning their monitors only to fuck off on the other side of stage during 90% of the set and then start waving frantically because they're using someone else's monitor setup and now want their instrument louder than the FOH. IEM/monitor engineers pretty much negate this but back in the day it would be a PITA if you were doing both. Hardly ever would they have input in FOH, for so many reasons.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Exactly.

Unless musicians have experience on both sides of the desk, having them in the room while you mix is almost always going to end badly. I wouldn't even let a band be in the studio when doing prelim mixes once I figured out this phenomenon. In my early years (before I knew better) everyone would be in the control room at the start of mix and sometimes, before the bus groups were even organized, band members would be putting their requests in for more fader time. Didn't take long for me to nix that BS.

This is my only real objection to us doing our own DYI productions. Everyone thinks that because we're not paying an engineer that I'm going to do infinite revisions or that every little whim will be honored. Mixing by committee is a form of self-harm.

 

[thraxil]

I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:



At the same time, JCM 900s are great but not everyone's cup of tea.

Going to a studio to jam with someone new, I can definitely understand wanting to just use the head that I'm familiar with even if the studio has something "better" available. I'm kind of fond of certain "bad" gear and tones in the right context too. One of my favourite bass tones I've ever gotten was with a Behringer V-amp pro running into a power amp and then into an old Peavey 1x15 combo amp's speaker (the amp had died so I just soldered a jack straight to the speaker). It had an octave effect that I could dial in just a tiny bit of and it tracked badly. The result was just the perfect amount of skronk that just made it sound huge and mean. Better tracking octaves didn't sound bad in the right way and running into a proper speaker cabinet, it never had quite the same effect. It wasn't the best bass tone for every situation, but everyone who heard it thought it sounded great and I've been unable to recreate it with gear that cost ten times as much.

Going to a studio to *record*, I'd probably still want to bring the gear that I know gets me the tone that I'm comfortable with, but in that situation I'd also be open to trying other options that the studio has available because I understand that tone sitting in a mix is a different beast than a single guitar by itself and what sounds good or bad will be affected by the mics, room, other band members' gear, etc. I'd also 100% do a DI track even if I was completely happy with my gear and tone because, again, recording introduces new variables. Having the flexibility to re-amp saves time and money if, eg, the engineer realizes later that they didn't position the mics right on the original take. If the guitarist isn't able to understand that or is still unwilling to even let you take a DI, that's a red flag.

 

[Ross82]

Lets not forget the whole Josh Homme thing that lead to a shit ton of basically worthless amps exploding in price/demand. You can do a lot of things with a lot of things.

 

[Rev2010]

At the same time, JCM 900s are great but not everyone's cup of tea

I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.

 

[c7spheres]

I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:

That sounds good and totally usable. It's definitely in the matter of taste realm.

I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.

If you really are set on and don't want that tone on the recording you gotta let him know and come to a resolution before you guys do all that work. It's eaiser to go through all that then record probably. unless it's a quicky.

 

[Ross82]

I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.

A curious point there though is that it depends on your geographical location on whether a Marshall is seen in the same light. In NA they're much more expensive than they are in the UK where they're common as mud, much lower price and not viewed as prestigiously. I used to have all sorts of Marshalls at hand and also 5150's, MESA's, a boutique now and then (Framus Cobra was a BEAST and I preferred it over Mesa for tone IMO) and the "overseas" units would nearly always be the preference, which I put down to rarity desire. In truth I could have recorded a perfectly good tone with any of them but its interesting to see peoples bias towards things.

I remember a lad that was obsessed with Dual Recto's and finally bought one with some inheritance. He was adamant that's what he wanted to use but this tone was just a buzzy 'flarp' to my ears (I'm not a fan of straight Recto tone and only find them decent with pre-boosting and a bit of fuckery), where a 5150 sounded way better for the material style to me. I think it ended up being a blend of a few amps in the end anyway which kinds of leads us back to the OP. Let him lay a Crate track and IF it sounds so terrible then, as would likely be done anyway, lay additional tracks with other amps and blend them in.

As other have said, tone in a mix can sound totally different than the isolated. I recall Max Cavalera said that on the Nailbomb album they took box cutters to the cab speaker cones to get a specific raspy tone. Its the wonder of sound production.

 

[Rawkmann]

I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:



At the same time, JCM 900s are great but not everyone's cup of tea.

Going to a studio to jam with someone new, I can definitely understand wanting to just use the head that I'm familiar with even if the studio has something "better" available. I'm kind of fond of certain "bad" gear and tones in the right context too. One of my favourite bass tones I've ever gotten was with a Behringer V-amp pro running into a power amp and then into an old Peavey 1x15 combo amp's speaker (the amp had died so I just soldered a jack straight to the speaker). It had an octave effect that I could dial in just a tiny bit of and it tracked badly. The result was just the perfect amount of skronk that just made it sound huge and mean. Better tracking octaves didn't sound bad in the right way and running into a proper speaker cabinet, it never had quite the same effect. It wasn't the best bass tone for every situation, but everyone who heard it thought it sounded great and I've been unable to recreate it with gear that cost ten times as much.

Going to a studio to *record*, I'd probably still want to bring the gear that I know gets me the tone that I'm comfortable with, but in that situation I'd also be open to trying other options that the studio has available because I understand that tone sitting in a mix is a different beast than a single guitar by itself and what sounds good or bad will be affected by the mics, room, other band members' gear, etc. I'd also 100% do a DI track even if I was completely happy with my gear and tone because, again, recording introduces new variables. Having the flexibility to re-amp saves time and money if, eg, the engineer realizes later that they didn't position the mics right on the original take. If the guitarist isn't able to understand that or is still unwilling to even let you take a DI, that's a red flag.

I think thats a good example of how most of us didnt fully know how to dial in gear back then and wanted to blame the gear rather than our lack of skill/knowedge. Sounds absolutely fine and usable to me, so i say let the man use his Crate and dont sweat it. Most of that older gear from back in the day we thought was cheap and ‘unusable’ is actually fine when one actually knows what they are doing with it.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

First I start with “Sweet Home Alabama”, followed by “Enter Sandman”, then top it off with “Sweet Child o’ Mine”.

 

[LostTheTone]

I think thats a good example of how most of us didnt fully know how to dial in gear back then and wanted to blame the gear rather than our lack of skill/knowedge. Sounds absolutely fine and usable to me, so i say let the man use his Crate and dont sweat it. Most of that older gear from back in the day we thought was cheap and ‘unusable’ is actually fine when one actually knows what they are doing with it.

I mean, lets be real, even today plenty of people make good, expensive equipment sound dreadful. Turns out that there's genuinely few things that are truly ghastly.

It also turns out that all the other stuff that when we were young, broke and stupid we didn't think really mattered actually really really matters. The reason your 1x12 combo sounds crappy is because they put a cheap, crappy speaker in it not because combo amps are somehow destined to sound dreadful. The reason all your pedals sound weird is because they're in front of the amp, instead of in the loop where they belong.

We have come a long way in terms of the received wisdom stuff - Like, you need a noise gate, mmkay? Not just as a nice thing, you need one. Distortion pedals are supposed to work with your amp, not just magically give you proper tone.

But we still haven't arrived at a time when most people know how to dial their gear in nicely.

 

[Grindspine]

Holy shit what? How have I never heard of that being a huge bass gear nerd?!

The BV300 was a guitar amp. Even though it was made with Ampeg parts, the preamp voicing was aggressive guitar.