New ENGL Ironball 20w = mean lunchbox amp head
- Thread starter mindwalker
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Its not at all scooped or compressed like the Powerball honestly. Its really thick and ballsy, with nice lead tones, but still with that super tight response. It reminds me more of a mix between the Fireball 100 and Blackmore.
mindwalker
Well-Known Member
With so many people checking the amp out in NAAM, there's only 2-3 silly videos of it on youtube!!! But well I guess with a standard phone, any footage would sound like a frying pan
Can't wait to see one up close or more good videos of it!
Andromalia
Pardon my french
CANCELED - the band says: "it's too small. Rename it SteelBall and check Lance Armstrong Maybe ?"
Ummm.......
I wasn't knocking European/US production (or Chinese production for that matter). My point was that, on the whole, the way European manufacturers currently compete with Chinese ones is by producing smaller quantities of high-quality products made by small highly-qualified workforces. You pay for the QC, the sourcing of components, the workers who have done this for years. By contrast, Chinese manufacturers focus on high volume/low cost. It's definitely not a farmer in a shed, we're talking giant factories producing large numbers of units a day.
In no way representative, but:
Lundahl Transformers - Contact us
vs.
Zhejiang Minyang Transformer Co., Ltd. - oil immersed transformer,dry type power transformer
Dongguan Liqin Revertex Product Co., Ltd. - transformer,toroidal transformer,power transformer
Guangzhou Yufeng Trade Co., Ltd. - Tube Amplifier, Audio Transformer, Vacuum Tube
guitarneeraj
WindMarp
I have to beg to differ and give you some factual data, because I know for a fact that not only Chinese, but all "low-cost" transformer manufacturers try to avoid using high-quality materials, simply because the parts they are manufacturing are just not meant to be used for hi-fi audio, studio gear, or other such applications where quality is actually a performance metric. For example, the material used for the laminations in such transformers is a low-carbon steel and usually not CRGO (cold rolled grain oriented) silicon steel, which has a high permeability and hence is favorable for transformer laminations, but also is much more expensive. But audio companies use these low-quality parts anyway, obviously to maximise profits on a mass production scale.
There are many technical papers on the internet about transformer manufacture design considerations, and this is really off-topic from OP so I would prefer not to discuss this any more. If you're interested, please PM me and I will give you all the info you need about transformer manufacturing.
And with regards to your example, Lundahl has been known to provide transformers for lots of studio gear, including really really high-end mic-pre's, the kind that common people like you and me would have to sell a kidney to afford. The chinese manufacturer, on the other hand, is listed on an e-marketplace and does not provide any sort of datasheets or technical documents, which invalidates the quality in the first place, IMHO. (Did I just try to justify why Lundahl is better than some obscure Chinese manufacturer?
)I don't think we're disagreeing - I never claimed that average Chinese transformer production in any way approaches the quality of average European production. My point was simply that Chinese production is generally high-volume compared to the EU, so saying that Chinese transformers are made in a shack by a farmer is not quite fair.
My comment about the Lundahl factory looking more like a farmers shack was of course a joke, but, purely in terms of scale (once again, not quality!), it's the European producers that are likely to be closer to "a farmer in a shack". I am not sure if I can find any stats on the number of transformers shipped, but I am guessing that the output of any of the companies on Alibaba dwarfs the number of transformers Lundahl ships in a given year.
Okay this thread has gotten really silly. Bottom line: The Ironball sounds incredible as anyone who was at NAMM would attest to. Its one of the finest in ENGL's lineup irregardless of price. In my opinion it absolutely smokes the Mini-Recto and any other of its contemporaries, including ones we also carry at my store like the mini H&Ks and Oranges. It's not a knock on those, but it's just the reality of how I see it. Its not a "lunch-box" amp, it just looks like one. This is a serious pro product.
And again, no one is disparaging made in China amps, just pointing out the (should be obvious) reality that a German made ENGL all tube amp is going to cost more to produce and have higher quality components, hence the higher price. It is what it is.
ENGL actually though about pricing it a little lower to directly compete with the Mini-Recto and similar products, but they felt strongly that it was a vastly superior product and didnt want to skimp in any way. They're confident once people start playing these in stores that people will be glad they stuck to their guns. Obviously if its too expensive for some, then so be it. There's always the used market, b-stocks, etc.
And again, no one is disparaging made in China amps, just pointing out the (should be obvious) reality that a German made ENGL all tube amp is going to cost more to produce and have higher quality components, hence the higher price. It is what it is.
ENGL actually though about pricing it a little lower to directly compete with the Mini-Recto and similar products, but they felt strongly that it was a vastly superior product and didnt want to skimp in any way. They're confident once people start playing these in stores that people will be glad they stuck to their guns. Obviously if its too expensive for some, then so be it. There's always the used market, b-stocks, etc.
exclamation-mark
Well-Known Member
It's actually kind of funny when you look inside an engl amp - The things are full of those generic brand yellow MKT capacitors (they're probably some sort of name brand, but still very, very cheap)! They also tend to use axicom telecom relays that are under a buck each (probably expensive compared to generic brand stuff though).
One thing I find particularly heinous is the use of 1/4 watt resistors literally everywhere in the signal path, as well as the fact that they appear to be carbon film (instead of metal film - impossible to tell for sure from visual inspection, though). 1/4 watt is really pushing it for a plate resistor, yet many manufacturers (including peavey and engl) do it. Technically, it's still somewhat safe since they typically only dissipate 0.1 to 0.2 watts, depending on bias, but that's still enough to push the temperature past 100 degrees C (depending on ambient temperature).
Increased temperature means increased thermal noise (which is pretty important in a high gain amplifier with numerical gain figures in the MILLIONS). The fact that they're only 1/4 watt resistors increases the contact noise compared to higher wattage resistors, and assuming that they're using carbon film instead of metal film increases both contact AND shot noise (I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone that this is bad). Ever wonder where that HISSSSSS was coming from? Now you know...
Now to top it all off, most of the components (even though I assume they're of reputable brands) were most likely manufactured china or south-east asia anyway. Vishay/Sprague, Vishay Dale, T.E Connectivity, Bourns, Ohmite, etc are all companies I would consider top notch. Nearly every single one of them have huge manufacturing operations in Taiwan, China, Indonesia and Thailand. I think it's largely irrelevant where anything is produced (from an electrical components perspective). Parts is parts. It's up to the engineer to decide the rest (assuming manufacturers don't lie in their datasheets!). I'll say this doesn't apply to audio (output) transformers though - they're some sort of black art that lies outside of all engineering logic.
TL;DR - ENGL's look the same as a Bugera on the inside.
One thing I find particularly heinous is the use of 1/4 watt resistors literally everywhere in the signal path, as well as the fact that they appear to be carbon film (instead of metal film - impossible to tell for sure from visual inspection, though). 1/4 watt is really pushing it for a plate resistor, yet many manufacturers (including peavey and engl) do it. Technically, it's still somewhat safe since they typically only dissipate 0.1 to 0.2 watts, depending on bias, but that's still enough to push the temperature past 100 degrees C (depending on ambient temperature).
Increased temperature means increased thermal noise (which is pretty important in a high gain amplifier with numerical gain figures in the MILLIONS). The fact that they're only 1/4 watt resistors increases the contact noise compared to higher wattage resistors, and assuming that they're using carbon film instead of metal film increases both contact AND shot noise (I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone that this is bad). Ever wonder where that HISSSSSS was coming from? Now you know...
Now to top it all off, most of the components (even though I assume they're of reputable brands) were most likely manufactured china or south-east asia anyway. Vishay/Sprague, Vishay Dale, T.E Connectivity, Bourns, Ohmite, etc are all companies I would consider top notch. Nearly every single one of them have huge manufacturing operations in Taiwan, China, Indonesia and Thailand. I think it's largely irrelevant where anything is produced (from an electrical components perspective). Parts is parts. It's up to the engineer to decide the rest (assuming manufacturers don't lie in their datasheets!). I'll say this doesn't apply to audio (output) transformers though - they're some sort of black art that lies outside of all engineering logic.
TL;DR - ENGL's look the same as a Bugera on the inside.
mcleanab
Theta Sagan Swords
^^
So has anyone ever changed the above mentioned components to their better counterparts? What was the result? (sorry, I know this is a bit off topic...) Just curious...
(I happen to LOVE my e530 by the way... if there's a way to make it more reliable, I'd be open to the possibilities...)
So has anyone ever changed the above mentioned components to their better counterparts? What was the result? (sorry, I know this is a bit off topic...) Just curious...
(I happen to LOVE my e530 by the way... if there's a way to make it more reliable, I'd be open to the possibilities...)
exclamation-mark
Well-Known Member
I'd say my post was already way off topic anyway >_>
Concerning replacing any parts... I doubt you'd hear any difference or gain any appreciable reliability from it (it might be a teensy little bit quieter with higher wattage metal films). I personally wouldn't bother unless you were making a clone or something. I'm not too fussy with capacitor brands either - as long as they're some sort of plastic film they all sound pretty much the same to my ears. I think big volume manufacturers figured this out eons ago, and hence why those yellow mkt caps are so prevalent in marshall/peavey/engl/fender/bugera/whatever else brand amplifiers today.
On topic: amp sounds pretty beastly from the namm videos, but I'd like to hear one mic'd up properly!
guitarneeraj
WindMarp
I don't want to seem like a know-it-all dick so I'm not going to write anything off-topic on this thread.
MetalDaze
Repless in Seattle
Hey Nick,
So, if someone already owned a PB100, is there anything compelling that would make this a must have (other than plain old GAS)?
So, if someone already owned a PB100, is there anything compelling that would make this a must have (other than plain old GAS)?
Yeah, it sounds better than the Powerball. In my personal opinion the Powerball II is the least impressive amp ENGL makes. Been pretty vocal about that opinion for years now. I never understood why the PB is the default ENGL people always try. It's cool and all, but as an ENGL fan who uses them live and a dealer who gets to play them side by side constantly, it doesnt compare to the rest of the lineup. Not for my tastes anyway.
ENGLs I really like more than the Powerball include the: Invader, Savage, Fireball 100, Blackmore, Retro 100, Steve Morse, and the Special Edition (but ironically despite the price I like the SE the least of this group). The Victor Smolski model which is based off the Powerball but improved upon I do like as well, but I find installing warmer pre-amp tubes (such as the JJ ECC83S Gold Pin in v1) really helps eliminate some of the graininess and gives it a punchier sound.
The Ironball has the tightness of the Powerball (or all ENGLs), but with a thicker, warmer sound like the Fireball or Invader has. I'd take an Ironball over a Powerball anyday. So I'd say, if you're a Powerball owner, you'd love the Ironball.
To take the thread back on topic (since I contributed to it going OT in the first place), when I get around to amp shopping in the next few months this is likely to be one of the potential candidates, although the smaller Randall Diavlo amps look like a tempting low-cost alternative (albeit a single channel one). I can imagine Engl will be much easier to get hold of in Germany than the Randall though.
MetalDaze
Repless in Seattle
Crap. I said PB100 but meant FB100.
Yeah it's much more along those lines but definitely not as dark as the FB100. Just a really great sound man. The ENGL booth was packed with dudes drooling over it. It was one of the best amps we heard at the show. Really liked the new Diezel D-Moll and those Rhoads amps which I had never heard prior.
Justin_Blackened
Well-Known Member
This head looks awesome. I love all these low watt heads Cant wait for some VS mini recto video s
SkullCrusher
Well-Known Member
Engl Ironball Head 20 - Thomann UK Cyberstore
I don't think that's a bad price for Europe.
Just wish it had a wood/tolex box not metal
I don't think that's a bad price for Europe.
Just wish it had a wood/tolex box not metal
Yeah sounds very very good to me so far.
Nice fat cleans or scooped cleans and with the Boost on the Cleans,.a whole other Range of Tones.
I'd like to hear less Gain on the Rhythm/Lead Channel since I don't do Metal but I heard an EJ type
tone on one Demo and I'd like to hear some mid gain stuff on Channel 2.
Sounds fatter than most EL84 Amps.
The Competition for this Amp would be the
Mesa Mini Rectifier -which is $1000.
I seriously doubt if the cheaper $200 -600 lunchbox Amps
can FULLY hang with either Ironball or Mesa Mini Rec .
Nice fat cleans or scooped cleans and with the Boost on the Cleans,.a whole other Range of Tones.
I'd like to hear less Gain on the Rhythm/Lead Channel since I don't do Metal but I heard an EJ type
tone on one Demo and I'd like to hear some mid gain stuff on Channel 2.
Sounds fatter than most EL84 Amps.
The Competition for this Amp would be the
Mesa Mini Rectifier -which is $1000.
I seriously doubt if the cheaper $200 -600 lunchbox Amps
can FULLY hang with either Ironball or Mesa Mini Rec .
