Nonsense of the alt-lite / proud boys

[narad]

So sort of randomly throughout the past couple of weeks I kept hearing this term pop up, Alt-lite, that I might have heard before but never really stopped to wonder how it differed from other groups it was mentioned along side — alt-right, white supremacists, nazis, etc. — but it also popped up in a podcast so I got a good dose of the ideology:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/626/white-haze

Although this is not a super recent podcast, it dealt with the proud boys, who just that week popped up on my newsfeed as instigating a bar fight.

The gist of it (/proud boys) being that it’s the alt-right without the racism. But still espousing that white male civilization is superior. As the podcast points out, that's not a big leap from "white men are superior", so do you think there is any way that can be interpreted that isn't still racist? Because I'm definitely not getting it. I mean, clearly a lot of the guys interviewed are still very racist anyway, so I wonder if this just a rebranding to get less internet censorship? White supremacists can't get into a club, so..., let's just use a different noun phrase, and then do the same shit.

It also seems kind of hypocritically resentment-driven. If you go up for a job against a woman, and you lose, and then suddenly <your group> is being oppressed by <that group> vs. <you> lost to <that person>. This is basically the story of the founder.

* I mean, not so serious a discussion. You can't take an ideology whose core tenets involve rules about not wanking too seriously.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

It's the same old shit just trying to be packaged a bit differently. In another couple years we'll see the same folks calling themselves something different.

 

[Demiurge]

The gist of it (/proud boys) being that it’s the alt-right without the racism. But still espousing that white male civilization is superior. As the podcast points out, that's not a big leap from "white men are superior", so do you think there is any way that can be interpreted that isn't still racist?

No- I don't think there's any leap at all. I can't see any philosophical or functional difference, let alone a semantic one. The attempts nowadays by idiots to add a veneer of intellect to their hooliganism is remarkably pathetic.

 

[watson503]

Proud Boys initiation - getting "clicked-in" ='s getting punched by these douchebags as you name 5 breakfast cereals...pathetic.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

This became a cringe thread rather quickly.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

Proud Boys initiation - getting "clicked-in" ='s getting punched by these douchebags as you name 5 breakfast cereals...pathetic.

"I'm a proud western chauvinist."
Holy crepe, what's with some people?

 

[narad]

This became a cringe thread rather quickly.

To be fair, I cringed a little while starting it.

But yea, actually seeing these guys does take it to a whole other level. Not really the people I had envisioned during the podcast.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

I hope memberships come with one of these.

 

[zappatton2]

I hope memberships come with one of these.

Since we know that this is an actual poster that really exists, I still have to wonder, who looks at this and thinks to themselves "I'm totally cool with the way my country is going."

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I hope memberships come with one of these.

The cognitive dissonance required to think that a draft dodging rich kid who has been protected by private security their whole lives wouldn't shit their pants in any situation remotely resembling battle.

 

[mastapimp]

The cognitive dissonance required to think that a draft dodging rich kid who has been protected by private security their whole lives wouldn't shit their pants in any situation remotely resembling battle.

The artwork is from Sharpwriter/Jason Heuser (https://www.jasonheuser.com/) He does all the presidents in some outrageous fashion, but this one is definitely fitting of how Trump (and some of his diehard base) probably views himself. In fact, the FL bomber guy had this same picture plastered to his van next to pictures of trump enemies in cross hairs.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

The artwork is from Sharpwriter/Jason Heuser (https://www.jasonheuser.com/) He does all the presidents in some outrageous fashion, but this one is definitely fitting of how Trump (and some of his diehard base) probably views himself. In fact, the FL bomber guy had this same picture plastered to his van next to pictures of trump enemies in cross hairs.

He does packaging graphics for a local brewery here too.

I don't know what his typical subject matter is, but that shirt is from American As Fuck which supplies the official wardrobe of terrible people.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

The gist of it (/proud boys) being that it’s the alt-right without the racism. But still espousing that white male civilization is superior. As the podcast points out, that's not a big leap from "white men are superior", so do you think there is any way that can be interpreted that isn't still racist? Because I'm definitely not getting it. I mean, clearly a lot of the guys interviewed are still very racist anyway, so I wonder if this just a rebranding to get less internet censorship? White supremacists can't get into a club, so..., let's just use a different noun phrase, and then do the same shit.

So I don't know anything about the proud boys or any of this stuff, but I'm going to take a complete shot in the dark here.
Perhaps there's people that think being alt-right without the racism is fine. These people probably think that western civilization (words matter) is something to be proud of. Similar to all of the white identitarians (however the hell you spell that) that are upset that it isn't socially acceptable to be proud of being white, while society is consistently shoving every other conceivable type of pride in your face.

Rebranding for these people in an effort to catch less censorship makes sense, since as soon as you start to go down that path people are absurdly quick to make very venomous assumptions of you. And if you're a normal, well-adjusted person who doesn't hold crazy regressive ideas like white supremacy or "the jews did this," you'd want to do everything you can to not be associated with people that do.

So to lead into your question of "can this be interpreted in a way that isn't racist," I think yes. I think you're right in the assessment that the statement "white male civilization is superior," is intrinsically racist, but if the stance is instead "western civilization is superior," then no, I don't think it is. It's still inflammatory, even if it was objectively true, those that do not believe in a western society would feel attacked- and it certainly isn't objectively true. But it's a valid opinion, and doesn't indicate bigotry imo. Lots of people around the world think that their culture is "better" or that X culture is "better."

 

[MaxOfMetal]

So I don't know anything about the proud boys or any of this stuff, but I'm going to take a complete shot in the dark here.
Perhaps there's people that think being alt-right without the racism is fine. These people probably think that western civilization (words matter) is something to be proud of. Similar to all of the white identitarians (however the hell you spell that) that are upset that it isn't socially acceptable to be proud of being white, while society is consistently shoving every other conceivable type of pride in your face.

Rebranding for these people in an effort to catch less censorship makes sense, since as soon as you start to go down that path people are absurdly quick to make very venomous assumptions of you. And if you're a normal, well-adjusted person who doesn't hold crazy regressive ideas like white supremacy or "the jews did this," you'd want to do everything you can to not be associated with people that do.

So to lead into your question of "can this be interpreted in a way that isn't racist," I think yes. I think you're right in the assessment that the statement "white male civilization is superior," is intrinsically racist, but if the stance is instead "western civilization is superior," then no, I don't think it is. It's still inflammatory, even if it was objectively true, those that do not believe in a western society would feel attacked- and it certainly isn't objectively true. But it's a valid opinion, and doesn't indicate bigotry imo. Lots of people around the world think that their culture is "better" or that X culture is "better."

In a vacuum, sure. But it's been shown time and time again that the "Proud Boys" have no problem marching with Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK. Even if they are aligned merely in the context of "yay white people", are those "friends" worth having?

Not to mention that the founder of the group promotes violence and is on video swinging at reporters (including a woman).

But, as a white dude, it's bullshit to claim victimhood. Which is what it comes down to. The narrative of the white man as a vicitim is garbage. The 115th Congress is 81% white. We have a white (orange) president with a staff that's over 86% white. The Supreme Court is 7/9 white. About 70% of CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are white. Whites are almost twice as likely to have completed post secondary education. We rule the roost. There's no attack on "white culture" whatever the fuck that is.

 

[Cabinet]

These subgroups are products of hyper connected social media and political identities moving further and further into extremes. Which poses a proper question: Why should a modern government be a democracy?

There is an underlying connection between hard activism (high profile) and polarity of ideology. You'll even see it in the military as civilian society moves more left, the military will tend to yield more right. An interesting thought from the book The Soldier and the State.

 

[broj15]

The proud boys will occasionally make an appearance at one of the dive bars around here. Thankfully my area of the city is populated mostly by poc, immigrants and socially concious punk kids, so it doesn't take long for someone to run them off.

 

[Randy]

These subgroups are products of hyper connected social media and political identities moving further and further into extremes. Which poses a proper question: Why should a modern government be a democracy?

There is an underlying connection between hard activism (high profile) and polarity of ideology. You'll even see it in the military as civilian society moves more left, the military will tend to yield more right. An interesting thought from the book The Soldier and the State.

Bits and pieces track with what I've observed.

The big one being the constant jockeying for validation from each groups respective social media camps, and the constantly climbing extremes people will go to get that validation. In non political circles it's about who's got a bigger butt, who cooks more exotic food, who visits more countries and in the political sphere, it's who can collect more scalps.

 

[narad]

non political circles it's about who's got a bigger butt, who cooks more exotic food, who visits more countries and in the political sphere, it's who can collect more scalps.

Who has the newest BKPs...

 

[narad]

So I don't know anything about the proud boys or any of this stuff, but I'm going to take a complete shot in the dark here.
Perhaps there's people that think being alt-right without the racism is fine. These people probably think that western civilization (words matter) is something to be proud of. Similar to all of the white identitarians (however the hell you spell that) that are upset that it isn't socially acceptable to be proud of being white, while society is consistently shoving every other conceivable type of pride in your face.

You're right -- I mistyped, thinking ahead in the sentence. It's that western civilization is superior/the best, is the quote I'm hearing.

But having thought about it, western civilization is too broad to be meaningful apart from its tendency to be considered white civilization. Is there another thread of commonality??

For instance, many white supremacy groups like to make references to Sweden or other scandinavian countries -- like hey, western civilization is great -- the US, sweden, UK, Germany. My Swedish friends are probably the most critical of the US, of all my random international friends. As are most of my UK friends. Various bits of Western civilization are extremely different along just about any axis you care to cluster them into, so I'm not really sure I understand what being proud of western civilization could really mean. And, for many western civilizations, what is built is built on the backs of the less fortunate, not by the leadership one would attribute the Western ideologies to.

So yea, I've mostly come around to viewing this as a racist statement. The only non-racist interpretation is like, "What civilizations are the greatest? Rank them" "Oh hey, all my top choices happen to be Western!", etc. -- The way the proud boys pitch it, it feels causal.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

In a vacuum, sure. But it's been shown time and time again that the "Proud Boys" have no problem marching with Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK. Even if they are aligned merely in the context of "yay white people", are those "friends" worth having?

Not to mention that the founder of the group promotes violence and is on video swinging at reporters (including a woman).

But, as a white dude, it's bullshit to claim victimhood. Which is what it comes down to. The narrative of the white man as a vicitim is garbage. The 115th Congress is 81% white. We have a white (orange) president with a staff that's over 86% white. The Supreme Court is 7/9 white. About 70% of CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are white. Whites are almost twice as likely to have completed post secondary education. We rule the roost. There's no attack on "white culture" whatever the fuck that is.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with these guys and if that's what they think the best course of action is to make their statement, I'm inclined to agree with you.
All of those stats though ring hollow to me, since even the US Census estimates that nearly 80% of the American population is white. It makes sense that there would be a proportionately high amount of them in positions of power, since that's representative of total population count. I agree that citing white guys as a 'victim' is a far overreach, but to deny that there's a cultural attack on young, white males is kind of disingenuous.

You're right -- I mistyped, thinking ahead in the sentence. It's that western civilization is superior/the best, is the quote I'm hearing.

But having thought about it, western civilization is too broad to be meaningful apart from its tendency to be considered white civilization. Is there another thread of commonality??

For instance, many white supremacy groups like to make references to Sweden or other scandinavian countries -- like hey, western civilization is great -- the US, sweden, UK, Germany. My Swedish friends are probably the most critical of the US, of all my random international friends. As are most of my UK friends. Various bits of Western civilization are extremely different along just about any axis you care to cluster them into, so I'm not really sure I understand what being proud of western civilization could really mean. And, for many western civilizations, what is built is built on the backs of the less fortunate, not by the leadership one would attribute the Western ideologies to.

So yea, I've mostly come around to viewing this as a racist statement. The only non-racist interpretation is like, "What civilizations are the greatest? Rank them" "Oh hey, all my top choices happen to be Western!", etc. -- The way the proud boys pitch it, it feels causal.

I'm nowhere near as well-traveled as you are, so I don't have the insight on that front that you do. It makes sense though that most would differ in fairly significant ways, but I think the sentiment is closer to western ideology. All of the places you've mentioned vary in terms of government, laws, societal norms, etc; but I think it wouldn't be too far off base to say that they all have adopted a collective set of "western values," the idea that all men are created equal, folks should be judged on the content of their character, every human being under the sun deserves equal rights, etc. When people refer to "western civilization," I tend to assume that they're referring to nations that have collectively adopted these ideals.

Which, running with that assumption, is something I can see being proud of. There are many parts of the world that aren't like that. Sure, every country has it's baggage and yes, the US/UK etc are certainly no exception, but a lot of that was overcome, and I think that's also something worth being proud about.

Circling back to what I said initially (and again at the start of this post) I'm not too familiar with the proud boys themselves, and I'm not really defending them since I don't really know who they are and what they do, but I'm trying to play a bit of devil's advocate and answer some of the points brought up in your initial post. Judging by what Max said, the people you're talking about are clearly not people with the worldview I'm describing.