Objectification and Branding of Women in the Guitar World
- Thread starter narad
- Start date
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narad
Progressive metal and politics
The simplest analogy I can come up with is imagine I started a thread with the paragraph:
"I'm drinking a lot of diet coke but I'm worried about the aspartame ingredient. In another domain, the clinical studies of mice, increased aspartame has been correlated with increased cancer risks. How likely is it that this translates to humans, how much would be too much, and how do we know the long-term effect of consuming it?"
And you replied:
"I like diet coke!"
Albake21
Ibanez Nerd
Even so, my point still stands. No matter which way you look at it. I'm not talking about you or any single person on this forum, I'm generally talking about the world. My point goes back to what you said though in your original post. You say that we need to be more equal with genders... this is exactly what my post was getting at. The fact that a logo doesn't matter and I don't think it has any impact if they put a "sexy" girl on there is a fucking dick and balls.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Are dick and balls a minority in the guitar community?
Look, I don't want to argue *if* the logo is offensive/strongly distasteful/generally-negative to women if it's just going to be a group of guys debating it. That's stupid.
And does that logo matter significantly? No, I'll totally concede that in the range of fancy Dumble amplifiers, there's probably not a single girl who was ever going to buy that amp in the first place, probably the only women who will ever see it are grandkids when they're over visiting. I'm not saying, "hey! let's boycott that amplifier that no one here (besides me I think) would ever buy!" just that in 2018 I'm surprised to see anyone go that way. Like I thought we were moving in a different direction.
The larger point is is that things that have a small negative effect, when accumulated in huge amounts, maybe have a significant effect. So does all this imagery, (and as the discussion branched out -- online behavior, and attitudes) contribute to the huge disparity between male/female guitar players? I don't know, but I don't think it's obvious that it does not, or to exactly what extend it does not. But I think a group of guys are in a terribly poor position to assess that.
And I feel like I've repeated this too much, but I've seen this all go down in computer science and the effect of changes to things that I did not think would matter. It's funny to point this at out this part of the conversation, but I'm actually on the conservative side of this in CS. I've been pleasantly proven wrong on the effect of these policy changes, because I do value striving for a more equitable environment, but I'm still rolling my eyes hard on the recent proposal to change the name of a major 20+ yr old conference, NIPS, because it's too easy to make jokes about. But honestly maybe that too will have some positive effect, because I know I almost always have been leaning on the wrong side of these policy decisions, and so I have come to grips with the fact that just because I don't see the reason / or feel it's over-reacting, does not mean it is.
So if I see a guy type out his gut reaction to this, and make a comparison to dick and balls on an amp, then forgive me but I fail to see how this is really a well-informed opinion on the issue.
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Albake21
Ibanez Nerd
I guess my point is, why do we always have to be progressive? If anything, people should just looks at things for what they are. Even if there are women out there that would be interested in it, it shouldn't matter. If I found an amp that I thought was awesome, but let's say it had a big muscular shirtless dude on it, would it change my mind? Of course not, and it shouldn't matter to anyone else. Of course unless you just don't like the look of it, which of course is fine and opinionated.
At the end of the day, every thing you are saying still comes down to offended people and more importantly offended women. Now I'm not saying women should just "get over it" as I absolutely think guys are to blame here too. You get these loser thirsty guys who care about looks and sex and it just gets messy from there. My point out of all of this is towards both men and women of the music community. Get over yourselves and let's enjoy music. Who cares if it's a man or a women? Who cares if a logo is a dick or tits? We are all human here.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
This is easy to say from the majority pov.
We have examples of great female guitarists: Jennifer Bannett, Orianthi, Nita S, Yvette Young, Sarah Longfield…
You can argue that they're numerically inferior to male guitarists, and that's probably true.
Why?
That's a tough question. Less attractive? Ugly? Linked to a male-dominated culture?
Peraphs a woman could give us a more objective reason.
I dunno, but I think that music in general is not a locked door for women (we've women all around the pop and hip-pop genres) and I doubt some cheesy logos or stereotypes can hold a woman back from playing the guitar.
You can argue that they're numerically inferior to male guitarists, and that's probably true.
Why?
That's a tough question. Less attractive? Ugly? Linked to a male-dominated culture?
Peraphs a woman could give us a more objective reason.
I dunno, but I think that music in general is not a locked door for women (we've women all around the pop and hip-pop genres) and I doubt some cheesy logos or stereotypes can hold a woman back from playing the guitar.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
Why do we play 7 string guitars?
Albake21
Ibanez Nerd
I'm not so sure that analogy has anything to do with this discussion.
Also I'd like to point out at the end of the day, we have many female guitar gods. Even more so than ever before. If women wanted someone to look up to or get them into playing guitar, they easily can. The reality is, they choose not to. I'm kinda going off of what @lurè said.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
What do you think that analogy has anything to do with?
narad
Progressive metal and politics
If you guys are trying to make the point that there's no problem because you can list more female guitar idols than you have fingers on one hand (not that you're there just yet), that's a pretty poor argument. That's a "I'm not racist, I have a black friend" level of argument.
mongey
Well-Known Member
Is it a sausage fest in rock and metal guitar ? yeah . But I can honestly say from my 15 or so years kicking aorund venues playing music I would say well over 50% of acoustic singer songwriters I've known and seen out are female. Is that cause as a genre its more inviting to females or is that just something wired into us ? rock and metal guitar is a really ego driven medium .the gunslinger mentality . I would say that cock measuring competition is more off putting to female players then anything else. I don't think its the fact people are being sexist and judging , I think its the fact we are all kinda stupid
Necris
Bonitis.
Uhhhh...
You're trying to make the point that there's a problem because of a logo and a couple of other stereotypes. That's pretty much the same level of argument.
Is there any real reason to not be more inclusive? What’s there to lose? It doesn’t seem to be very difficult, it’s not going to cost anyone time or money really. 
Is there any real reason to not be more inclusive? What’s there to lose? It doesn’t seem to be very difficult, it’s not going to cost anyone time or money really.
I just don't see this non-inclusive attitude.
A child could start being interested in learning how to play the guitar after seeing Steve Vai or Taylor Swift indifferently.
If then he/she is not going to play rock/metal ,who's to blame? Maybe they don't like the music or lose the interest overtime, but there are examples on both sides of people that have been into guitar and have had success.
I just don't see this non-inclusive attitude.
A child could start being interested in learning how to play the guitar after seeing Steve Vai or Taylor Swift indifferently.
If then he/she is not going to play rock/metal ,who's to blame? Maybe they don't like the music or lose the interest overtime, but there are examples on both sides of people that have been into guitar and have had success.
Maybe it’s a regional thing.
Over here, if you’re a woman or girl who shows interest in predominantly male hobbies you’re treated like shit. I have no idea how that is in Italy.
I agree. People have the right to be cringy. I don't think that people should have an issue with that, however.
I think this whole discussion just reverberates my point these last two or three years now: These social expectations need to be codified in some way.
I honestly think that some of these guys don't think that what they are doing is wrong. The culture around gender issues has actually really changed in the past 15-20 years, so anyone who was programmed to behave according to the old social norms might have trouble adjusting, and without any codified norms, and certain types screaming bloody murder over the most minor things, those folks probably don't have any clue about what is inappropriate.
Now, I know how someone out there will likely say "You ought to just use common sense" or similar arguments, but the fact that these behaviours are so rampant is convincing evidence that common sense is an unreliable source of wisdom in this case.
We are all animals, like it or not, so we ultimately have the following biological goals:
But, from a sociological perspective, we cannot expect every person in an arbitrarily large social group to behave in a civil manner. The best shot at curtailing the behaviour is to educate people, and that's where the breakdown occurs, I think. Sure, you have a few HR trainings here and there in corporate offices, but, how often does such training cover instances such as this case, and how often is the CEO of the company involved? And how often are small businesses the size of this amp company doing these trainings? I'd guess very little.
I honestly think that some of these guys don't think that what they are doing is wrong. The culture around gender issues has actually really changed in the past 15-20 years, so anyone who was programmed to behave according to the old social norms might have trouble adjusting, and without any codified norms, and certain types screaming bloody murder over the most minor things, those folks probably don't have any clue about what is inappropriate.
Now, I know how someone out there will likely say "You ought to just use common sense" or similar arguments, but the fact that these behaviours are so rampant is convincing evidence that common sense is an unreliable source of wisdom in this case.
We are all animals, like it or not, so we ultimately have the following biological goals:
- Breathe oxygen
- Drink water
- Eat food
- Shit
- Piss
- Screw
But, from a sociological perspective, we cannot expect every person in an arbitrarily large social group to behave in a civil manner. The best shot at curtailing the behaviour is to educate people, and that's where the breakdown occurs, I think. Sure, you have a few HR trainings here and there in corporate offices, but, how often does such training cover instances such as this case, and how often is the CEO of the company involved? And how often are small businesses the size of this amp company doing these trainings? I'd guess very little.
TedEH
Cromulent
IMO I think this is part of what cause the gut reactions / defensive stances a lot of people take. I try to be careful about saying that what someone is doing is wrong. What's being done isn't wrong, per-se. There's nothing wrong with putting a sexy woman on your amp. BUT - and I think this is the part people miss - is that regardless of right or wrong, it's sort of intellectually dishonest (maybe the wrong word here) to deny that the choice has an impact on people. It's not "wrong" to use the imagery, but it's also not a stretch to say that the image could be a turn off to certain audiences. That's what the conversations is about - impact. The potential for far reaching effects of subtle choices. It's not about what's offensive, it's about what our choices say to the people around us who didn't get a say in that choice.
To be fair, I find the demos sound pretty great. I wouldn't buy it because I can't justify $4k for one amp, but if I was going to buy a $4k amp, I imagine I'd be turned off by the imagery too. Not because I think it's wrong, or is tacky or "offensive" or lacks class or whatever words you want to use to describe it, but just cause if I'm given the choice, that's not the image I'd want to put forward- the pinup vibe just isn't my thing. If anything, I can think of lots of things I'd rather have on the amp that are probably much more objectionable.
