narad
Progressive metal and politics
So, this is going to be a very open topic and I honestly don't know where it's going to lead. But I was involved over in another forum, of just making a quick comment about this new guitar amp / amp brand from George Metropolis and others:
I said basically, it's 2018, are we really going to go with the sexy librarian logo on an amp for adults ($4k+). This turned into me having to say more than I probably wanted to at the time, but here's what I see as the issue.
So for a long time I've worked in various computer science departments, and CS has really been at one of the forefronts of really trying to push gender equality in the department. The reason for this is pretty obvious -- CS departments are often almost entirely male, despite a very high rate of success amongst the female students who do stick it out through a few years. But because the students are primarily male, student groups will be mostly male, organizational decisions will reflect male values, and in aggregate we found that this often resulting in an unwelcoming environment for women students.
This could be many things -- I used the example of "Striptease" being chosen by an all male group of CS club students when the event wound up containing some women. One of which, didn't complain, but said, that she's "used to it". I guess that resonated with me / really stirred a debate inside me over whether things did need to change. And we've had plenty of more overt problems, porn mags in student lounges and things of that sort, and things with faculty/student dynamics that can be really depressing.
But the point is that many departments have acknowledged this, and have put policies in place, to make women more included in organizational decisions, nad have groups where young female researchers can receive mentors, and just many small policy changes that really don't change anything, but have had a profound effect on enrollment (with I'm sure together with the larger cultural shift, #metoo and all that).
Now getting back to guitars, to me the guitar world feels very similar to the CS world. It's predominantly male, women that do play guitar are subject to being critiqued on their appearance to no end (leading to some of the cringiest youtube comments), and women are often judged with the "oh, well, we wouldn't even be talking about her if she wasn't a girl." sort of thing. I *imagine* that it would create an unwelcoming environment. If I was in the minority demographic here, and a bunch of products and advertisements were trying to push products with sexy versions of my gender or race, I think it'd probably make me a bit uncomfortable tbh, depending on how pervasive it is.
Shouldn't we be trying to behave similarly? I am not trying to protest an amp logo or ask that it be changed (they said they'd build one without the logo if I wanted, and that's good enough for me), but if I was making an amp I would never have a sexy woman logo, just the same as any race, nationality, or any other demographic of minority guitar players.
At the very least, shouldn't we include the demographic in decisions that use them for branding purposes? I think that's where I'm maybe the most surprised to get this blowback of "stop being offended for people!" It's like I'm not offended, and I don't think they'd be "offended", but maybe how these choices effect minorities (and whether or not that is an issue) shouldn't be something that's decided by white guys who make up like 97% of the guitar playing population?
Do you guys feel this is an issue? Am I being too progressive even by SSO standards by bringing this up? Curious especially to any female pov on this. I could see it going either way to be honest!
* I do know many CS women who would probably be offended at the notion of "smart belle" as like a hot girl in a miniskirt...but with glasses! If it's "smart belle" and like a logo of Grace Hopper -- now that's progressive!
I said basically, it's 2018, are we really going to go with the sexy librarian logo on an amp for adults ($4k+). This turned into me having to say more than I probably wanted to at the time, but here's what I see as the issue.
So for a long time I've worked in various computer science departments, and CS has really been at one of the forefronts of really trying to push gender equality in the department. The reason for this is pretty obvious -- CS departments are often almost entirely male, despite a very high rate of success amongst the female students who do stick it out through a few years. But because the students are primarily male, student groups will be mostly male, organizational decisions will reflect male values, and in aggregate we found that this often resulting in an unwelcoming environment for women students.
This could be many things -- I used the example of "Striptease" being chosen by an all male group of CS club students when the event wound up containing some women. One of which, didn't complain, but said, that she's "used to it". I guess that resonated with me / really stirred a debate inside me over whether things did need to change. And we've had plenty of more overt problems, porn mags in student lounges and things of that sort, and things with faculty/student dynamics that can be really depressing.
But the point is that many departments have acknowledged this, and have put policies in place, to make women more included in organizational decisions, nad have groups where young female researchers can receive mentors, and just many small policy changes that really don't change anything, but have had a profound effect on enrollment (with I'm sure together with the larger cultural shift, #metoo and all that).
Now getting back to guitars, to me the guitar world feels very similar to the CS world. It's predominantly male, women that do play guitar are subject to being critiqued on their appearance to no end (leading to some of the cringiest youtube comments), and women are often judged with the "oh, well, we wouldn't even be talking about her if she wasn't a girl." sort of thing. I *imagine* that it would create an unwelcoming environment. If I was in the minority demographic here, and a bunch of products and advertisements were trying to push products with sexy versions of my gender or race, I think it'd probably make me a bit uncomfortable tbh, depending on how pervasive it is.
Shouldn't we be trying to behave similarly? I am not trying to protest an amp logo or ask that it be changed (they said they'd build one without the logo if I wanted, and that's good enough for me), but if I was making an amp I would never have a sexy woman logo, just the same as any race, nationality, or any other demographic of minority guitar players.
At the very least, shouldn't we include the demographic in decisions that use them for branding purposes? I think that's where I'm maybe the most surprised to get this blowback of "stop being offended for people!" It's like I'm not offended, and I don't think they'd be "offended", but maybe how these choices effect minorities (and whether or not that is an issue) shouldn't be something that's decided by white guys who make up like 97% of the guitar playing population?
Do you guys feel this is an issue? Am I being too progressive even by SSO standards by bringing this up? Curious especially to any female pov on this. I could see it going either way to be honest!
* I do know many CS women who would probably be offended at the notion of "smart belle" as like a hot girl in a miniskirt...but with glasses! If it's "smart belle" and like a logo of Grace Hopper -- now that's progressive!
