One does not simply flutter

[DrPaul]

how well can a kahler flutter? I've never actually seen someone flutter on one, and was wandering if it can be made to flutter like a floyd, because I've been leaning more and more towards kahlers.

 

[Durero]

Skip to 3:20

 

[DrPaul]

Is there any way to make a kahler flutter better? I know it can't ever best an OFR but I have the inclination to get as close as I can.

 

[Nlelith]

Skip to 3:20
*Floyd Rose vs Kahler Trem*

My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video. Might try to remove one spring though...

 

[Deadnightshade]

My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video. Might try to remove one spring though...

That's alright some Floyds just don't sugarcoat it, or don't want to say a good word to anybody because of their own self-esteem problems.

 

[Andless]

Funny.... I just watched that video yesterday to see what the kahler is all about. Intrigued, but it kinda prompted me to stick with the OFR I'm used to. Or go fixed.

 

[decreebass]

My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video. Might try to remove one spring though...

One of the problems might be that it's a 7.

I started a thread over at the EBMM forums about this. Trouble is, NO ONE seems to know or understand the physics behind the flutter. Should you use lighter gauge strings? Who knows. Less springs? More springs? NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE.

I was asking because while all my 7-string JPs have the flutter, honestly, they all suck even compared to the Kahler in that video. My question to the forum was returned with speculation, answers from people citing "it's simple physics" but unable to explain. You'd think that as long as the spring tension balances the string (the bridge flush with the body), when you whack it (lol) or dive a little and slide off (the slow whack) the tensions should balance and it should flutter. While this is indeed the case, it's NOTHING like the guitars in this guy's video.

It's frustrating and I have no idea what in FACT makes the flutter or how to improve it.

 

[decreebass]

Seriously? No one knows? I guess this is the same reason the thread just died at the EBMM forums. I guess it either just works or doesn't - I suppose I'll have to accept that mine fall somewhere in between lol.

 

[Edika]

If you see Hooke's law you will see that the equation is equal with F=kx, where x is the displacement caused by force F and k is the stifness of the spring. Since the springs are put in parallel in a Floyd they act as capasitors and the final k is the sum of the k's of the springs. Meaning kfin=k1+k2+k3. I am not taking into account of the V shape for putting springs because that complicates matters a bit. Strings also matter as their elasticity and thus vibration will contribute to the effect. So yes less springs and strings that can vibrate more (not necessarily lighter ones but they do help as they decrease the dampening factors) would give you more flutter. Not to sound smug but anyone with high school physics knowledge can figure this out.

 

[Andless]

After reading this again gave it a try on my 7 with OFR. No flutter at all... (I'm on D'Addario XL 9-54).

 

[decreebass]

If you see Hooke's law you will see that the equation is equal with F=kx, where x is the displacement caused by force F and k is the stifness of the spring. Since the springs are put in parallel in a Floyd they act as capasitors and the final k is the sum of the k's of the springs. Meaning kfin=k1+k2+k3. I am not taking into account of the V shape for putting springs because that complicates matters a bit. Strings also matter as their elasticity and thus vibration will contribute to the effect. So yes less springs and strings that can vibrate more (not necessarily lighter ones but they do help as they decrease the dampening factors) would give you more flutter. Not to sound smug but anyone with high school physics knowledge can figure this out.

Also not to sound smug, but is this theoretical or do you have proof and experience that this works? Also, what is the TLR version? If I understand correctly, lighter gauge strings & fewer springs arranged straight equals better/more/longer flutter?

When I spoke about the physics behind it, I wasn't looking for equations, though I appreciate that you took the time to write it out (though I suspect you're one of a miniscule minority on this forum that knows what the hell all that was that you wrote) but I need to be spoken to like I'm a child: so my question, hopefully more to the point this time, is:

"Is there a way to make the flutter better/longer/deeper/etc. and how is this accomplished? No math, no anecdotes, no theory, no hearsay: Has anyone taken a guitar that had a mediocre flutter and done stuff to it to make it as stellar as the flutter in the above video? And if so, what did you do?"

Again, not trying to be a d***, but it's incredibly frustrating that something like this should be such a mystery on multiple guitar forums lol

 

[trem licking]

light gauge strings with 3 springs, big heavy trem block and a tight whammy bar setting with the bar positioned parallel with the strings forward or backward. ibanez edge trems as well as floyds should do it fairly easily... i recall seeing even a fender trem as well as a prs trem flutter on videos before.

 

[Edika]

Ah I didn't realize you wanted empirical evidence of people trying to improve the flutter of a guitar so I apologize. I haven't tried to so I can't comment more on that. The theory suggests that if you decrease the stiffness of springs it will decrease the dampening effect that makes them go to their original position quicker.
What trem licking suggests is correct plus using two springs instead of three, since you'll also be using lighter gauge strings. The bigger block that has more mass will make the tremolo flutter more.
Also you need to see areas that will prohibit/dampen movement. Well maintained knife edges on the pivot points will transfer energy to the springs better, so a Floyd system with hardened steel edges would flutter better. If your knife edges have gone dull and there is a way to sharpen them without damaging the bridge then this should help too.

So to recap, light gauge strings, if possible two springs in parallel with low stifness, tight bar for better control and well maintained sharp edges on the Floyd.

 

[groverj3]

My Dc700 Floyd flatters even less than Kahler in this video. Might try to remove one spring though...

I've never needed to use more than three springs and that seems to be the sweet spot for getting a good flutter. I use 10s in standard, 10.5 in Eb, 11 in D, etc. I can balance it just fine with three springs in all those situations.

 

[Nlelith]

Well, Floyd on my Carvin came with 3 springs, arrow shape. I'm going to change strings this week, and leave Floyd with 2 springs, parallel shape. I'll report if it made flutter any better or not.

 

[Edika]

Well, Floyd on my Carvin came with 3 springs, arrow shape. I'm going to change strings this week, and leave Floyd with 2 springs, parallel shape. I'll report if it made flutter any better or not.

I don't know if 2 springs will be enough for a 7 string but putting them in a parallel formations should help. Springs used in OFR's (if this isn't a new model that has it) should help. I know people have reported that 7 string OFR's don't flutter as much as 6 string OFR's and the 3 springs minimum is a good explanation.

Another reason I can thing that would diminish flutter would be how well the guitar is setup and how fresh the strings are. If you have strings being dampened by touching the strings (action too low or frets popping up) and if the strings are worn out. There might be some frequencies (aka notes) that might flutter more as they might come in sync with the frequency of the springs. I have a bit of noisy springs in some of my guitars and I have seen that they get louder with some notes and their harmonic frequencies. Those notes might flutter more than others.

 

[jvms]

Does anyone know a way to make Kahlers float better?

 

[decreebass]

FYI, everyone, I emailed Ernie Ball and one of their techs got back to me with advice.

Hello,

I've asked around at various forums (including the EBMM) and nobody seems to be able to give any solid experience-based advice; it's all anecdotal or theoretical.

Basically, my question is this: How can I improve the 'flutter' of the tremolo on my Maj 7? The whole tremolo system feels a bit stiff and I'm quite eager to soften it up and get that awesome JP flutter. It doesn't flutter for more than a fraction of a second and that flutter feels very tight and un-musical. I'm hoping to get it to the point where it has the beautiful JP warbling-type flutter that lasts more than a second...

Right now, it's exactly as shipped - exactly as it was set up from the factory. I'm wondering if I need more springs, fewer springs, if I need to angle the springs differently (more tension on the bass side, etc.) or switch to lighter gauge strings, or some combination of the above.

Any light you guys could shed on this would help me out greatly and I'll be happy to pass the words along - thanks!

-Jase (Majesty S/N:00271)

and they replied:

Hey Jase,

First off, thanks for playing Music Man!

I'm not sure if you're aware, but Mr. Petrucci changes string gauges pretty frequently. And when he changes gauges, we do the same with his signature instruments that we ship out. He just switched back from .009's to .010's a couple of months ago, requiring us to add a spring to the trem. Although the difference is somewhat subtle, and shouldn't affect the flutter very greatly, this may be the difference you're noticing.

What I would do if I were you (if you're comfortable with it), is play with .009's and take one of the springs out, then arrange the remaining 2 springs like this:

​
​If you were to take a spring out and keep playing .010's, you'd probably have to tighten the trem claw to the point where it's backed up all the way to the trem cavity wall to make up for the added tension of the strings. This way, you have less tension from both the strings and the springs, making the entire trem system more flexible.. ​

​Please try out the above alteration when you get the chance, and let me know how it works out for you. If you're still uncomfortable with your flutter at that time, then we'll explore another option. ​

​Regards,​

Jacob Rocha

So I'm gonna give this a try and report back - probably with video evidence of the before and after. Might be a day or two so be patient

 

[decreebass]

Well, sad to say, no such luck. I switched to 9s and arranged the two springs in a V shape as directed. The flutter improved a little, but not dramatically. Quicktime was not playing nice with my Mac and Logitech webcam so no video, but suffice it to say it only got slightly better. I've just accepted that the flutter simply isn't/can't be as pronounced on a 7. I'm sure with practice and improved technique it can be better than it is now, but it's never gonna be like the above video.

C'est la vie.

 

[eaeolian]

After reading this again gave it a try on my 7 with OFR. No flutter at all... (I'm on D'Addario XL 9-54).

I flutter mine on 10-59 XLs with four springs in the Floyd on my SLAT3-7 all the time. Do you have a Tremel-no? It really screwed up the flutter on Noodles' Floyd-equipped KXK with 3 springs and the same gauges.