"Pirates buy more music than average consumers."

[knuckle_head]

This "new age" is nearly 20 years old now. That's longer than most musical era's we've experienced in the last 200 years. I was booking DIY shows, pressing zines, recording demos, building my first home studio, etc... back in the early 90's.

Congratulations. As far as I'm concerned though, I've never heard any worthwhile non-electronic DIY music until fairly recently. Not to mention that today's technology is vastly better than the 90s tech and then there's the internet.

Just because you are ignorant or unappreciative of anything older than 'recent' doesn't negate its having been done successfully. Just because it's easier now does not make it better now.

Can you afford to fund tours, recording, duplication, promotion, distribution, merch, and still feed yourselves?

Why bother? You can just record at home alone and release it via the internet.

Welcome to your hobby - especially if you see music sales as unimportant to success or viability.

If I could do it then ANYONE can do it now.

Yes, and it's slowly starting to shift towards that. We're definitely not there yet though, plenty of people are still using the labels.

It isn't slow and it is decades old - indie labels exist exactly because of mind sets like yours. Labels exist to succeed - any business venture does. And by the way, no one gets a label deal by "just record(ing) at home alone and releas(ing) it via the internet." Unless you want to be a Justin Bieber.

and it's a good thing if you see music as a business at all as opposed to just a hobby

They're not doing it for you. They're doing it for the big labels, I highly doubt that any indie artist would be able to put anyone in jail.

The laws that protect labels protect me as an independent - whether or not I prosecute anyone or have them jailed. If the penalties associated with infringement come back to the rights holder it does indeed make it viable to prosecute.

 

[nickgray]

The old "I didn't know it, so it doesn't exist" argument?

You don't seem to understand my point. I know that bedroom studios were around 20 years ago. Trouble is, they didn't really have any effect on the industry. Nowadays the situation is much more dramatic - building a studio is considerably less expensive, you can achieve far, far more with computers and the internet provides much more possibilities than it did back in the day.

Again - this isn't new

I'm not arguing that it's not new. I'm arguing that nowadays the impact of the technology is waaaay more dramatic than it ever was.

 

[flint757]

Precisely. Not to mention the outrageous punishment. 10 years for uploading? Have they gone stark raving mad? You could get less for killing a person. This is the worst kind of scare tactic and it truly shows that the governments don't give a rat's ass about common people, they take order from big business, the people with the money.

While I agree, if people didn't ignore the laws when they are less harsh they wouldn't have had to make the laws harsher either.

I don't think it is an argument between common man and big business, but the fact that it is a problem and less harsh laws/civil suits don't seem to be working at all.

Like I said I think it is too harsh, crime doesn't fit the time, and is undoubtedly going to be hard to enforce without accidentally accusing someone who is innocent. So by no means do I agree with the law, but I do see why they are going this direction. In a way I hope it fails if only because I don't want it to be the testing ground for US and/or Europe.

 

[wankerness]

It's (basically) the same. I sent this exemple to show it's just people bickering over the money and it had nothing to do with art or being a musician.
It's business, plain and simple.

Record companies keep most of the money and claim the musician's problem is piracy, to keep that money and not distribute it better. MAkes for a good scapegoat while still racking in the massive profits.



For a lot of them, they are. They record Soandsos "Piece of Chamber Music" with their trios and quatuors, the thing is, 5K sales for such a CD is a yearly sales record. It is a meaningless part of their income. And since I sense some sense of superiority in your statement, let me make another one: A philarmonic of high level is composed of 80+ Chris Brodericks. Most of them bury 90% of the metal (or pop/rock musicians, for that matter) in musical ability. That's why they are the ones with a salary.

SOme sense of superiority? What are you even talking about? They're far less likely to be composers AND musicians than rock and jazz instrumentalists, I fail to see how recognizing that fact is an insult against them. Of course their technical abilities are a lot higher than 99.9% of people that play electric guitar. I have nothing against classical musicians at all, and I don't know who would other than resentful low-intelligence rock/country guys who can't get a steady gig.

I know that they do sometimes record those kinds of small group things, but those kinds of records are probably nearly independent of any piracy thing. Even if someone wanted to pirate it, it's nearly impossible to find a site that's going to even have copies of some specific contemporary classical musician's record unless it's someone incredibly famous like say Yo Yo Ma or Midori. Most people that pirate classical music seem to just collect whatever recordings they can find of a piece and don't really give a shit about who performed it, unless it's some legendary performance from the 60s conducted by Leonard Bernstein or sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau or something. Professional classical musicians who are receiving salary for playing in an orchestra are extremely insulated against the whole piracy thing and thus I don't think bringing them up as a reason why piracy is not that bad is at all applicable.

 

[nickgray]

Welcome to your hobby - especially if you see music sales as unimportant to success or viability.

If I ever start to release my own music, I would never bother with selling it. It'd be donateware and I would bet on providing regular content. I'll try to rip off the ideas of YouTube gaming channels and certain music channels that do covers (including metal covers). Selling music seems like a complete dead end to me.

Labels exist to succeed - any business venture does

Good for them. Personally, I don't like labels. Indie ones can be alright, but I certainly don't like major labels because they are parasites, pretty much literally.

 

[flint757]

The laws that protect labels protect me as an independent - whether or not I prosecute anyone or have them jailed. If the penalties associated with infringement come back to the rights holder it does indeed make it viable to prosecute.

Precisely, and I think the difference is money and lawyers, not the government picking big business over the little guy. The law is the same for both, one party just has more to pony up when it comes down to the wire.

 

[tedtan]

In the States it is the copyright holder who looks for violators, I hope, given the law, someone with less bias is doing the searching.

Most people aren't aware, but we actually have a "six strikes" anti piracy policy here in the US. It is an agreement between the RIAA, MPAA and the various ISPs. I think the agreement was reached a year or 18 months back, but it hasn't yet been enforced. There will be a third party (approved by the RIAA and MPAA) monitoring file sharing traffic, not the copyright holder themself. Penalties are to be enforced by the ISPs rather than the third party and range from throttling your connection speed to cutting off your internet service until you sit through some anti piracy videos to cancelling the internet service entirely.

I have a PDF somewhere on a USB stick, but it is at the office. If I find it tomorrow I will upload it, but here is a brief article from CNN in the meantime.

Why 'Six Strikes' could be a nightmare for anyone with shared Internet - CNN.com

 

[flint757]

Most people aren't aware, but we actually have a "six strikes" anti piracy policy here in the US. It is an agreement between the RIAA, MPAA and the various ISPs. I think the agreement was reached a year or 18 months back, but it hasn't yet been enforced. There will be a third party (approved by the RIAA and MPAA) monitoring file sharing traffic, not the copyright holder themself. Penalties are to be enforced by the ISPs rather than the third party and range from throttling your connection speed to cutting off your internet service until you sit through some anti piracy videos to cancelling the internet service entirely.

I have a PDF somewhere on a USB stick, but it is at the office. If I find it tomorrow I will upload it, but here is a brief article from CNN in the meantime.

Why 'Six Strikes' could be a nightmare for anyone with shared Internet - CNN.com

That keeps it a civil matter though and the ones reporting the violation are definitely the original holders, although I'm sure the RIAA and MPAA are also doing some snooping as well. Software companies would have to do it themselves under that scenario as they don't fall under the RIAA or MPAA. There is an entire black list you can get online that keeps the companies with the copyrights from snooping around your PC so the larger ones are definitely handling it internally as well.

(next bit unrelated to your post)

You know I find it funny that people don't want the government involved and want to keep it a civil matter, but then are upset that laws favor the bigger companies. If the government isn't taking care of it then who is? The companies with the copyrights. Who has the resources to actually act on their rights? Big business. Without a lot of government involvement the law is always going to support big business because they can handle the additional resources necessary for it to make a dent.

What do people expect?

 

[tedtan]

I have been in this driver's seat since 1986 - back when CDs weren't even made yet and PCs were barely able to word process. This is the biggest reason I am so adamant I suspect. If I could do it then ANYONE can do it now.

Edit;


Japan Introduces Stiff Fines, Jail Time For Illegal Downloads : The Two-Way : NPR

It's happening - and it's a good thing if you see music as a business at all as opposed to just a hobby.

I hate to see IP infringement treated as a criminal offense rather than a civil one. But who knows, it may in fact be a necessary step in order to stop piracy.

 

[ArrowHead]

6 strikes thing isn't in place until 2013. And not all ISP's will follow it, nor do they have to.

 

[ArrowHead]

Nickgrey, Can I maybe point out that your location has something to do with your perspective, and that we might have felt the effects of this technology and DIY ethos earlier than you did?

 

[nickgray]

Nickgrey, Can I maybe point out that your location has something to do with your perspective, and that we might have felt the effects of this technology and DIY ethos earlier than you did?

Again, I wasn't saying that it all started a few weeks ago, I'm aware that it started around 90s or so. What I'm saying is, in recent years we've seen a fairly significant change in technology and availability when it comes to home studios and bedroom musicians. Back in the 90s or even early 00s you couldn't possibly dream of the price/performance ratio we're getting nowadays. This has affected electronic music the most, because now virtually everyone can compose stuff for free (legally, by using free VST plugins) on their computer. Just go on YouTube and search for a neat video tutorial or Google an article or something. The availability of the technology and the power of it is incredible.

 

[Jakke]

I can't understand why piracy-advocates (or by the logic earlier laid out, stealing-advocates) don't have crippling cognitive dissonance...

See, a lot of the bullshit attitude in piracy is "sticking it to those meanie corporations". But by doing that, you are in fact burying the corporations (labels) that actually give a single fuck about artists, and make revenue for an enormous corporation (Google) that has no fucks for musicians.
With the old model musicians got compensated, not always fairly, but they still got compensation. Now they get nothing, and yet these advocates have the nerve to tell musicians they are doing what is best for them?

Just come straight and say that it is pure and unadultered entitlement and selfishness, we all know it is, but apparently that's hard to admit.

 

[nickgray]

But by doing that, you are in fact burying the corporations (labels) that actually give a single fuck about artists

You're pretty delusional. Indie labels might care, but it's not about indie labels, it never has been. It's about the big labels, and they only care about money, they don't give a fuck about the artists.

Now they get nothing

Who gets nothing? I don't really see any decline in popular music, in fact, I see quite the opposite. I see more music, I see more genres, I see more variety, I see more availability. It's not just popular music, same thing is happening to classical music as well, and to jazz also.

 

[ArrowHead]

Back in the 90s or even early 00s you couldn't possibly dream of the price/performance ratio we're getting nowadays.

Again, we recorded an album for a pretty big label in a bedroom and our rehearsal space, ourselves, in the early 2000s. $800. Most expensive gear in the room was an Avalon preamp. And the engineer's pizza habit.


Sounds like a great price/performance ratio to me...



Additionally, you seem to think the home recording studio started with current technology. Adat, a mixer, and a few microphones wasn't all that expensive in the 80's and 90's. A bit pricier than now, but then the rewards were much much better then. (say $35-70 an hour recording local bands? And a waiting list up the yin-yang?)

Again - I really feel like it's a case where the ripples on the industry and the home user hit you a little later than they hit us. Here, there's been a mom/pop/bedroom studio on every corner since I was a kid.

Yes, as the cumulative effect on the industry shows the industry is far worse off now, but this started effecting the labels and publishing/recording industry a long time ago.

 

[Jakke]

You're pretty delusional. Indie labels might care, but it's not about indie labels, it never has been. It's about the big labels, and they only care about money, they don't give a fuck about the artists.

Oh? Does Google front with money for recordings, promotion and tours? You have to understand that labels are a business, and they depend on their musicians to succeed, then it is in their interest to sell as much of that musician as possible, and to make that musician stay on the label.

Who gets nothing? I don't really see any decline in popular music, in fact, I see quite the opposite. I see more music, I see more genres, I see more variety, I see more availability. It's not just popular music, same thing is happening to classical music as well, and to jazz also.

Nothing as in no monetary compensation, and money is something we need to survive. What you are using as proof of how well music is doing are hobbyists, and that would be like gauging how well the furniture market is by looking at the people who enjoy doing a little woodwork on the side.

 

[Jakke]

International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Culural Rights

1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone:

(a) To take part in cultural life;

(b) To enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its applications;

(c) To benefit from the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

2. The steps to be taken by the States Parties to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include those necessary for the conservation, the development and the diffusion of science and culture.
3. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to respect the freedom indispensable for scientific research and creative activity.

4. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the benefits to be derived from the encouragement and development of international contacts and co-operation in the scientific and cultural fields.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Just... Puttin' this out here..

 

[nickgray]

Oh? Does Google front with money for recordings, promotion and tours? You have to understand that labels are a business, and they depend on their musicians to succeed, then it is in their interest to sell as much of that musician as possible, and to make that musician stay on the label.

Nothing as in no monetary compensation, and money is something we need to survive. What you are using as proof of how well music is doing are hobbyists, and that would be like gauging how well the furniture market is by looking at the people who enjoy doing a little woodwork on the side.

Good heavens. Don't take this the wrong way, but you've won. You've all won. I just... I dunno. You've reminded me why I hate arguing about piracy on the internet, especially on music-related forums. Piracy and Israel are the two things I desperately try to avoid and yet somehow I cannot help myself

 

[knuckle_head]

If I ever start to release my own music, I would never bother with selling it. It'd be donateware and I would bet on providing regular content. I'll try to rip off the ideas of YouTube gaming channels and certain music channels that do covers (including metal covers). Selling music seems like a complete dead end to me.

All this is beginning to make ALOT more sense to me. I'll have this discussion with you when you have skin in the game. Let me know what your business model is - when you actually have one - at which point I can share with you what 30 years of music business experience has taught me. You're absolutely welcome to your opinions, but right now all you got is a cool story bro.

Personally, I don't like labels. Indie ones can be alright, but I certainly don't like major labels because they are parasites, pretty much literally.

I don't like grocery stores, but I still pay for my groceries.

Nearly all the music I have has come directly from the artists. The best musicians out there right now don't have deals. They are worth my money if for no other reason than I hope they keep making the kind of music I've bought from them. You're free to make your own choices . . . .

 

[The Reverend]

I care about keeping my favorite bands going, so I pay them for whatever I can. Whether it's merch at a show, giving them some cash in their tip jar, or buying their album online, I show them and their label that they still have fans willing to dish out the dough. If I was in a band, label or not, and I met a kid who 'loved' my work but thought that he could just get my album illegally because he was going to buy a shirt from me at a show, I'd be pissed.