"Pirates buy more music than average consumers."

[Scar Symmetry]

No one charges me to look at a painting. If it want to own it, then sure. But i can view all kinds of famous paintings online for free.

I think music should be the same. Artists shouldnt really be making tons of money. They should be doing it for the love of the art. With the new system, you get real artists that are happy to get their work out there for the joy of art, and a bunch of guys that want to be rockstars and dont want to get real jobs bitching because they arnt rich yet.

If i want to listen to something, I dont feel you should have to pay. If you want to own the disc and the product its self, then pay.

I dont feel too sorry for bands that are starving because record sales are down. People need to realize that being in a band isnt a real job for 99.9% of the time. They need to come to terms with the fact that they are CHOOSING to go into a field that is not going to make any money and they are doing it for arts sake instead of acting like being a musician is a legitimate job aspiration in this day and age. You just have to be like everyone else and have a real job to support yourself, and do your art on your own time and for yourself and not monetary gain.
THAT is the reality of the situation. You can hate it or love it, but thats the truth.


If you have a band that is lucky enough to have enough fans that buy records and merch to go on a tour, you should be greatful and not biting the hand that feeds by saying your not making enough money. Lots of bands tour with money from their own pocket like a vacation or something.

For the first time EVER, I agree 100% with 7SOH. A historical day for SSO!

There's middle ground to take into account too. The 9-5 may be the job you hate that pays safe, and touring may be the job you love (in a van 24/7 with sweaty hairy men?) that pays dangerously... but there's also middle ground. My job doesn't pay that well but I fucking love it and in the new year I'll be earning more money than I ever have before.

 

[tedtan]

This is called : Reality. It sucks, but its just the way it is. I dont like it, i just embrace it. Its part of growing up.

You are absolutely right, and I agree from a practical perspective. It is what it is and I can't change it, so I don't worry about it. But that doesn't mean it's right.

There is a market for people to swing hammers. People need houses to live in. No one lives in a cd.

There is a market demand for swinging a hammer because people created it. At one point, people built their own houses, plowed their own fields, sewed their own clothes, brewed their own beer, etc.

There is a demand for sports (to use your example), movies, and other entertainment because people created it. There was demand for music at one point, too, both live and recorded. The lables just lost control of their distribution beginning sometime in the late 90's and, as a result, today we have entire threads devoted to people justifying their belief that music should be free because that's how they FEEL.

Once again, it is what it is and I can't change it. And once again, that doesn't mean it's right.

 

[wespaul]

Being a musican today is like attempting to be a homeless guy to to make more money and attempt to act like that be a legitimate career decision. Are there the occational homeless person that stumbles on a bag of money or has a rich relative that dies or finds a winning lottery ticket? Sure. But for the most part your not going to have a home or food and life is going to suck.
Theres just not much of a market for homeless guys.

what?

 

[Scar Symmetry]

Being a musican today is like attempting to be a homeless guy to to make more money and attempt to act like that be a legitimate career decision. Are there the occational homeless person that stumbles on a bag of money or has a rich relative that dies or finds a winning lottery ticket? Sure. But for the most part your not going to have a home or food and life is going to suck.
Theres just not much of a market for homeless guys.

Truth talkin'.

 

[Ryan-ZenGtr-]

I always recall there was a listening area in all the record stores I used to go to. Everytime I failed to listen before purchase I always ended up with a steaming pile of shit bag of purchases.

Like the time I went to buy my first Paul Gilbert record. All they had was "Mr. Big - The best of...". Once I got it home I was horrified to find it was the "Best of... The Ballads".... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Actually, it's a nice record and I still listen to it occasionally.

So, with most of the real record shops gone, listening before purchase is facilitated by the internet, especially cool new bands that offer some samples at their web presence.

Most purchases in life are tangible items, the quality of which you can ascertain before purchase. Cinema, music and applications are the exceptions as commonly, you must purchase them before being given the opportunity to decide if they are fit for purpose.

Another thing about the present day is I've stopped supporting a lot of local venues because the quality of the acts varies so much. Ever interested in bringing in customers to consume alcohol, pulling a crowd for one night is more important to venue owners than maintaining quality over of a long period and ensuring repeat visits.

 

[Narrillnezzurh]

There's a lot of great discussion going on in this thread about legality and morality, but most of you are forgetting that in the end this doesn't come down to legality or morality at all, it comes down to what the consumer is willing and able to do to get the product, and it's become more than obvious that not only are people willing and able to pirate music, they're inclined to do so.

What's going on right now is the death of a paradigm, and the question isn't "how can we stop piracy," it's "what do we do now that it's here." If history has proven anything, it's that higher organizations can do absolutely nothing to nullify the power of the consumer in a free market, so if people really want to pirate music they're going to find a way to pirate music. It's similar to drug use; you can argue the legality of it and you can argue that it's morally wrong, but you can't stop it.

With that in mind, record labels are coming at this problem in the wrong way. They shouldn't be focused on preventing piracy, as that's an exercise in futility; rather, they should be looking into increasing the value of the traditional release format by offering intangibles that can't be replicated digitally, and they should use piracy as a method of increasing publicity and drumming up sales for more "valuable" physical releases. They should also start focusing less on releases and more on what you'll never be able to replicate digitally: the experience of a live show. In an ideal world, performances would be the true product. Physical releases would be a supplement to the label, based more on the loyalty of the consumers than on intrinsic value (although the value would be present to some degree), and digital distribution (pirating) would serve to generate interest in the musicians and the performances.

This article has some really interesting views on how the music industry should be coping with internet distribution.
The Technium: Better Than Free

 

[tedtan]

I don't know when you first noticed the decline in live acts over in the UK, but it happened stateside back in the 90's. At the same time, they party atmosphere of the 80's died off, meaning less patronage at the bars. The price of gas (petrol) increased quite a bit, at this time, too. Less patronage at the bars and local acts willing to play for free meant that bands were paid very little money for live performances. This combination largely killed off the independent acts' ability to break even on a tour.

 

[Sofos]

I have actually been talking with Paul of CoF about ideas to help boost record sales (not cut down piracy, it's pretty obvious that is just going to piss people off if we try that), and we have an idea we think is really good. Gonna work on it more and then make sure we have the rights to the method before we post it, but I'm really excited about it

 

[drgamble]

The cold hard facts about piracy is all about people making money off of music. Who makes money off of pirated music? ISPs, Google, YouTube, Bit Torrent, pretty much anyone that hosts or helps you find the music you like. That is the point in compensating artists. Artists are creating, but are expected to do so part-time and work a full time job while other people are making billions of dollars with the artists content and creation. Is it fair to create something and have some one else enjoy their success. It's obvious that the tech companies have done well to hide the fact that they are the ones making money off of music now.

 

[Andromalia]

I don't know when you first noticed the decline in live acts over in the UK, but it happened stateside back in the 90's. At the same time, they party atmosphere of the 80's died off, meaning less patronage at the bars. The price of gas (petrol) increased quite a bit, at this time, too. Less patronage at the bars and local acts willing to play for free meant that bands were paid very little money for live performances. This combination largely killed off the independent acts' ability to break even on a tour.

Depends. Situation isn't overly bright in europe either but at that time, people also want to forget about their daily troubles and have fun. I'm pretty sure nowadays is the most diverse show offering you can get ever, in France at least. Bands travel internationally, even obscure norwegian BM bands can reasonably hope to fill a 3/400 'seats' venue and make a european tour worth it. In the 80es it was the big US/UK/german acts and the local guys and that was it.

 

[Jakke]

Europe generally has great live scenes going on right now, which makes me many happy.

I think we are seeing an equalization. Previously american musicians and bands were the biggest attractions, now a lot more of domestic stuff is touring all of Europe. Festivals are also more common than ever and give big bands more opportunities to play big stages, and it also gives smaller bands chances to share those bigger stages.

 

[Narrillnezzurh]

The cold hard facts about piracy is all about people making money off of music. Who makes money off of pirated music? ISPs, Google, YouTube, Bit Torrent, pretty much anyone that hosts or helps you find the music you like. That is the point in compensating artists. Artists are creating, but are expected to do so part-time and work a full time job while other people are making billions of dollars with the artists content and creation. Is it fair to create something and have some one else enjoy their success. It's obvious that the tech companies have done well to hide the fact that they are the ones making money off of music now.

But you're comparing apples to oranges. I, as the consumer, don't directly pay any of those parties for the privilege of listening to music, and some of them (google, youtube, bittorrent) are totally free to use. You can argue that they make money off of piracy in the most indirect of fashions, but you could just as easily argue that similar profits are held by the middlemen in the traditional distribution process.

In fact, what you're suggesting isn't even new to the music industry. Record companies have always mooched more than their fair share off the record sales of artists, and venues have always taken significant portions of the profits for live performances.

 

[flint757]

The cold hard facts about piracy is all about people making money off of music. Who makes money off of pirated music? ISPs, Google, YouTube, Bit Torrent, pretty much anyone that hosts or helps you find the music you like. That is the point in compensating artists. Artists are creating, but are expected to do so part-time and work a full time job while other people are making billions of dollars with the artists content and creation. Is it fair to create something and have some one else enjoy their success. It's obvious that the tech companies have done well to hide the fact that they are the ones making money off of music now.

Yeah people don't think about that too often it seems. Torrenting or watching/listening to something online adds traffic to a site. Almost all websites have advertisements and the more traffic they have, the more the ad agency pays the website holder. In the new system someone is getting paid, but in an incredibly indirect fashion that screws everyone involved, except the website holder that is.

 

[tedtan]

I, as the consumer

This is where you are mistaken concerning the web based business models. You are not a consumer/client/customer/whatever. You are the product being sold, e.g., either your eyeballs on the page, or your collection of personal data collected from visiting a site being sold for marketing purposes. The advertiser is the customer.

 

[tedtan]

even obscure norwegian BM bands can reasonably hope to fill a 3/400 'seats' venue and make a european tour worth it.

Europe generally has great live scenes going on right now, which makes me many happy.

Europe definitely seems to have a better music scene right now. Bands are lucky to make enough to pay the fuel expenses to get from one gig to the next here in north america, and even very well established bands are hard pressed to pull in more than $8-10 dollars for a CD.

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

For the first time EVER, I agree 100% with 7SOH. A historical day for SSO!

 

[wankerness]

Europe definitely seems to have a better music scene right now. Bands are lucky to make enough to pay the fuel expenses to get from one gig to the next here in north america, and even very well established bands are hard pressed to pull in more than $8-10 dollars for a CD.

Very true. A lot of the bands I want to see don't even play in america anymore. I can't say I blame them, but I also don't really understand why it's like this. I guess population density is way higher in europe?

 

[Narrillnezzurh]

This is where you are mistaken concerning the web based business models. You are not a consumer/client/customer/whatever. You are the product being sold, e.g., either your eyeballs on the page, or your collection of personal data collected from visiting a site being sold for marketing purposes. The advertiser is the customer.

But this isn't relevant to the morality of piracy, as it relates to the artist getting what the artist is due, at all. I might be increasing Google's revenue by using their search engine, but they aren't stealing this revenue from the pockets of the artist, nor are the preventing any money from making its way to the pockets of the artist.

You're still comparing apples to oranges

 

[flint757]

He was referring to youtube, torrent websites, streaming sites, etc.. In those instance they profit from your view and you are only their in the first place (in this example) because of the artist who is not being compensated. Kind of out of our control, but it is still a fact that in the new paradigm a 3rd party is profiting while everyone else is losing in this particular instance.

 

[DLG]

anyone else imagine actual pirates digging through crates of vinyl every time they read the thread title?