Polyrhythm? (how to...)

[thedarkoceans]

hey guys.i need help.how could i learn polyrhythm? like 3 over 4 and other shit..it's pretty much interesting.
P.S. i am a bass player.
thx

 

[SD83]

2 handed tapping? Or at least using the thumb to create an open note "beat" in a different meter (3/4 melody, 4/4 beat... I guess even a simple solution as that would fuck up my playing for a while)? You have to find a way to play (at least) two different parts simultaneously. Unless you want to do some multi-tracking...

 

[SomeGuy97]

It's basic math mane; You could set up something like this:

4 bars of whatever rhythm in 3/4 going against:
3 bars of whatever rhythm in 4/4
=
both 12 total beats.

Nothing to it. Just try to tune out whatever the opposite rhythm is playing so it doesn't throw you off, lol.

 

[MistaSnowman]

You might want to try this site also....

polyrhythm | Mutant Bass

 

[GalacticDeath]

It's basic math mane; You could set up something like this:

4 bars of whatever rhythm in 3/4 going against:
3 bars of whatever rhythm in 4/4
=
both 12 total beats.

Nothing to it. Just try to tune out whatever the opposite rhythm is playing so it doesn't throw you off, lol.

Actually, what you described is polymeter. Polyrhythm resolves at each measure. Simple example of polyrhythm is a quarter note pulse against a triplet pulse. That's 3:4 or 4:3 depending on how you look at it.

 

[SomeGuy97]

Actually, what you described is polymeter. Polyrhythm resolves at each measure. Simple example of polyrhythm is a quarter note pulse against a triplet pulse. That's 3:4 or 4:3 depending on how you look at it.

Actually what I described IS a polyrhythm- and I would know because I took the polyrhythm lab at school. What private music school did you say you graduated from?
I see people on here constantly bickering back and forth about it trying to one-up each other and it gets REALLY old, really fast.

 

[chevymeister]

Actually what I described IS a polyrhythm- and I would know because I took the polyrhythm lab at school. What private music school did you say you graduated from?
I see people on here constantly bickering back and forth about it trying to one-up each other and it gets REALLY old, really fast.

Ah, the internet at it's finest...

 

[SomeGuy97]

Thanks for adding something constructive, that is the internet at it's finest.


It's the same thing; 4 groupings of triplet 8ths (i.e. 12 total triplet 8ths) in one bar of 4/4. So you have groupings of three that have to be played four times to end the bar evenly...just like what I described above 3/4 x 4 = 4/4 x 3.
The only thing that was different was 8ths in place of quarter notes and "one measure" instead of "one phrase". Same thing.

 

[Waelstrum]

It's basic math mane; You could set up something like this:

4 bars of whatever rhythm in 3/4 going against:
3 bars of whatever rhythm in 4/4
=
both 12 total beats.

Nothing to it. Just try to tune out whatever the opposite rhythm is playing so it doesn't throw you off, lol.

Actually, what you described MIGHT be a polyrhythm. It isn't if you're playing quavers or crotchets (eighth or quarter notes), as what you will get is the same rhythm with different pulses (polymeter). A polyrhythm has to have two different rhythms at the same time. However, you play dotted minims in the three four rhythm and semibreves in the four four rhythm, then it is a polyrhythm (and incidentally also a polymeter). But then again, if you're playing a few different sized rhythms then the line gets a little blurry.

The way I would figure out the 3:4 polyrhythm that the OP mention would be to find the lowest common multiple (12) to use as a base. Then I divide that up into 3 and 4, and accent the important bits:

1!__2___3___4!__5___6___7!__8___9___10!_11__12__1!
1!__2___3___4___5!__6___7___8___9!__10__11__12__1!
At this point, it is not a polyrhythm, as they are both the same rhythm, but with different accents. (Well it can sort of be considered a polyrhythm, but it's not absolute, and you'd have to accent pretty hard to make it obvious.)

Then I would cut out the non-accented notes:

1!__________4!__________7!__________10!_________1!
1!______________5!______________9!______________1!
Now it is definitely a polyrhythm.

 

[SomeGuy97]

Actually, what you described MIGHT be a polyrhythm. It isn't if you're playing quavers or crotchets (eighth or quarter notes), as what you will get is the same rhythm with different pulses (polymeter). A polyrhythm has to have two different rhythms at the same time. However, you play dotted minims in the three four rhythm and semibreves in the four four rhythm, then it is a polyrhythm (and incidentally also a polymeter). But then again, if you're playing a few different sized rhythms then the line gets a little blurry.

The way I would figure out the 3:4 polyrhythm that the OP mention would be to find the lowest common multiple (12) to use as a base. Then I divide that up into 3 and 4, and accent the important bits:

1! 2 3 4! 5 6 7! 8 9 10! 11 12 1!
1! 2 3 4 5! 6 7 8 9! 10 11 12 1!
At this point, it is not a polyrhythm, as they are both the same rhythm, but with different accents. (Well it can sort of be considered a polyrhythm, but it's not absolute, and you'd have to accent pretty hard to make it obvious.)

Then I would cut out the non-accented notes:

1! 4! 7! 10! 1!
1! 5! 9! 1!
Now it is definitely a polyrhythm.

I like to use big words in substitution for semantically equivalent ones too. You do realize this is a beginner forum and this guy is just trying to grasp the idea of what a polyrhythm is, right? This is only going to confuse him now. This is what I was talking about in my other post. Everybody tries to flex their brain here and make things more complicated than they really are. How many here are actually formally educated versus just regurgitating crap they read on the internet (and therefore must be true). All of a sudden we have an influx of these e-scholars coming out of the woodwork who spent 15 minutes on wikipedia and think they understand everything about music. I don't understand why everyone has such a boner over polyrhythms anyway when the most generic and simple bands use them constantly. Not to sell my band short, but we have them in nearly every song and the other guys don't even know what they are. It is not a hard concept to grasp or utilize. Rhythm in general is far less complex than Melody and Harmony.

Now I'll sit back and wait for everyone who didn't contribute anything about polyrhythms in this thread start to contribute by incorrectly analyzing and interpreting my post to make some "lolz".

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Actually, what you described is polymeter. Polyrhythm resolves at each measure. Simple example of polyrhythm is a quarter note pulse against a triplet pulse. That's 3:4 or 4:3 depending on how you look at it.

To an extent. Polymeter involves two (or more) meters that share the same beat. Given that the space between each of these symbols is rhythmically equal, this is the idea behind polymeter:

-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-__
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

Or 3:4

-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-__
-___-___-___-___-___-___

I wrote a bigass post on rhythm a while back; it might prove useful in understanding this stuff.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/147512-writing-djent-time-sigs.html

 

[GalacticDeath]

Actually what I described IS a polyrhythm- and I would know because I took the polyrhythm lab at school. What private music school did you say you graduated from?
I see people on here constantly bickering back and forth about it trying to one-up each other and it gets REALLY old, really fast.

Haha I'm not trying to one-up anybody. I don't claim to have studied in the most prestigious music school or have a doctorate in music. Most of what I know I've learned from my music theory and jazz band teacher in highschool. From what I've been taught what you described is polymeter.

Thanks for adding something constructive, that is the internet at it's finest.


It's the same thing; 4 groupings of triplet 8ths (i.e. 12 total triplet 8ths) in one bar of 4/4. So you have groupings of three that have to be played four times to end the bar evenly...just like what I described above 3/4 x 4 = 4/4 x 3.
The only thing that was different was 8ths in place of quarter notes and "one measure" instead of "one phrase". Same thing.

Exactly, which means it's not the same thing... That's the difference between polymeter and polyrhythm, at least from what I've been taught. Polyrhythms end after "one measure"and polymeters end after "one phrase". All the private teachers I've had and drummers I know have taught me this.

If you claim both our examples to be polyrhythms, then what is polymeter?

I'm here to learn just like anyone else. Like I said, I'm not a doctor of music so if I'm completely in the wrong here I'd like to know.

 

[GalacticDeath]

To an extent. Polymeter involves two (or more) meters that share the same beat. Given that the space between each of these symbols is rhythmically equal, this is the idea behind polymeter:

-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-__
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

Or 3:4

-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-__
-___-___-___-___-___-___

I wrote a bigass post on rhythm a while back; it might prove useful in understanding this stuff.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/147512-writing-djent-time-sigs.html

This is what I've believed polyrhythm to be. So if you're saying this is polymeter, then what is polyrhythm?

 

[SD83]

I have to read this again when I'm awake & sober... but up until now, I agree with GalacticDeath... I do realize that what I was talking about in my first post was a polymeter...
1_2_3_4_1_2_3_4...
1_2_3_1_2_3_1_2...
but if the 3/4 and the 4/4 played at the same time would take the exact same time to be played, wouldn't that be a polyrythm? 1_2_3 in 1.24 seconds while at the same time playing 1_2_3_4 in 1.24 seconds... (and thus, by all I read so far which could be misleading, wouldn't Meshuggah for example be mainly polyMETER instead of polyRYTHM?). To be honest, this kind of stuff confuses me to no end and I'd love to see an explanation of what polyrythm is as opposed to polymeter that I can understand (it might be the language which causes some of the confusion for me).

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

This is what I've believed polyrhythm to be. So if you're saying this is polymeter, then what is polyrhythm?

If you follow the link I provided, there is a more detailed explanation of the difference between the two. Polyrhythm is simply two or more different rhythms occurring simultaneously. They can be polymetric or not. It's like the statement that all Charles Dickens novels are books, but not all books are Charles Dickens novels.

I'll share an example of a composition I did back in 2009. I feel this requires a bit of pretext. This was done back when I was in community college. I had a musicianship class with a bunch of people that were real characters, and it was really early in the morning so things often seemed funnier than they should. We had an assignment one day to compose and perform a duet to showcase mixed meter. The requirements were that we'd select a partner (Oh, state education..) and use a couple different instruments, one of which would be hand clapping. I paired up with a guy whose name was frequently augmented with titles such as 'Minor-Seven-Flat-Five' and 'Razzmatazz'. Now, I couldn't just make a boring rhythm exercise, so I wrote this beauty.

Before I get to the music, you have to know the story here. There's this simple farmer named Bruce who goes to the pantry to get a pickle for his sandwich one day. The pickle he selects, however, is no ordinary pickle: it speaks to him and pleads not to be eaten. In exchange for his life, the magic pickle tells Bruce to dig at a certain spot on his farm. He digs and digs and digs, then finally hits something. Deep beneath the surface, a six-foot long prehistoric sea scorpion awakens and makes its way toward the surface. Suddenly and unexpectedly, it slips by Bruce, running off into the wilderness as Bruce shouts, "No!". He then spends a good chunk of time on an adventure to seek out the scorpion and put it back where he found it. I have a whole ballet written around this, it's pretty serious.

Anyway, the music. The first four bars are the conversation between the pickle and Bruce. There's some back-and-forth. Starting from the 6/8 and going through the first two bars of 11/8 is when they're digging down. The third bar of 11/8 begins the retrograde of the rhythm up to that point, signaling that the scorpion is digging up. The measure of 9 is where they hit the scorpion's lair. Check out the tambourine part! That's the scorpion drawing nearer. What's it doing? Every three eighth notes, there is a tambourine hit. There's all this other shit going on over it, but you could easily write that tambourine part in 3/8. That is polymeter. Also, nearly every measure in this piece is polyrhythmic, because the parts are playing different rhythms. There are no cross rhythms (three against two, etc.), but polyrhythm is certainly present.

("No!" is obviously Bruce's reaction, and the rainstick is the scorpion scurrying away.)

And, if you must know, the tambourine part is inspired by 2:50 here:



Not because it's polymetric or anything, but because Stravinsky taught me that a tambourine can sound like impending doom.

 

[SomeGuy97]

Polyrhythm is simply two or more different rhythms occurring simultaneously. They can be polymetric or not. It's like the statement that all Charles Dickens novels are books, but not all books are Charles Dickens novels.

This.


LOL at the "clap" rhythm...I'm assuming that's deliberate irony since it goes so well with the tambourine.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

LOL at the "clap" rhythm...I'm assuming that's deliberate irony since it goes so well with the tambourine.

I'm not sure I follow the tambourine part, but calling the parts "The Clap 1 & 2" was quite deliberate.

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

SchecteWhore = threadwinner.

 

[dwilk]

Polymetrics.

 

[GalacticDeath]

If you follow the link I provided, there is a more detailed explanation of the difference between the two. Polyrhythm is simply two or more different rhythms occurring simultaneously. They can be polymetric or not. It's like the statement that all Charles Dickens novels are books, but not all books are Charles Dickens novels.

I see, I guess I was failing to see the bigger picture here. I was always taught that they were 2 seperate things, I didn't think they could be one in the same. Thanks for the explaination dude.