Portnoy is back in Dream Theater

[Sermo Lupi]

I’m not saying from my perspective. I could give two shits. I find everything all of them do to be mostly boring. I don’t even listen to the first records much anymore. Vai puts me to sleep now. It’s not that it’s bad or not interesting to me, it’s just that I don’t care about all the flash and technical whatever any more. Dream Theater’s never brought a tear to my eye. Neither has Vai. Other bands have. And with far fewer notes. I don’t fall all over myself about John’s tone either. And I’ve been in a small auditorium with him and an amp. Sounded great. But didn’t wow me.

I wrote this when half asleep and in a lot of pain from a car wreck a couple days ago. I don’t disagree with it, but I realize it doesn’t really address the points.

On whether or not they replaced Portnoy or not, I don’t agree. They did replace him. Whether or not the resulting material was good or not is entirely subjective. To say otherwise is rationally dishonest. If they hadn’t replaced him there wouldn’t have been more albums until they brought him back in. He was replaced. Whether or not all of the roles he took on were replaced by Mangini or shouldered by another band mate doesn’t matter. They filled those roles and got the job done.

This seems to be semantics. You're contradicting yourself with your points below.

As to bands replacing certain members and changing image, etc…. My point is no from the perspective of the band. It’s from the perspective of the audience. Some bands will lose their identity if one or two members are no longer present. Imagine Metallica without James. Or Megadeth without Dave. Take Matt Bellamy out of Muse. Chris Cornell out of Soundgarden. Yes, you could counter with AiC. Fair. But Layne died. It was the only means to move on. And they are very different projects from each other. This is how you get eras of bands that are seen as whole other bands. It’s what Dio era Sabbath isn’t considered the same band as Ozzy era Sabbath. Both are good. But the bands identify had to change, and fans regard them differently as a result.

The fact Mangini said he never felt he was a full member of the band allowed to creatively contribute, the fact DT fans divide the band's catalogue as pre- and post-Portnoy, and the fact Portnoy's return to DT was celebrated by the music press as one of the biggest news stories of the year, suggests Portnoy was exactly the type of 'irreplaceable' band member you're describing.

I can’t stand projects like Spock’s Beard and NMB. They are everything I don’t like about Prog.

To be fair, from your last post it doesn't sound like you like DT much either

Here's a clip of Eric Gillette playing DT material with Portnoy and Rudess. Sounds note-for-note perfect to me.

 

[BenjaminW]

I can’t stand projects like Spock’s Beard and NMB. They are everything I don’t like about Prog.

What about them makes you think it's everything you don't like about prog?

 

[G_3_3_k_]

This seems to be semantics. You're contradicting yourself with your points below.



The fact Mangini said he never felt he was a full member of the band allowed to creatively contribute, the fact DT fans divide the band's catalogue as pre- and post-Portnoy, and the fact Portnoy's return to DT was celebrated by the music press as one of the biggest news stories of the year, suggests Portnoy was exactly the type of 'irreplaceable' band member you're describing.



To be fair, from your last post it doesn't sound like you like DT much either

Here's a clip of Eric Gillette playing DT material with Portnoy and Rudess. Sounds note-for-note perfect to me.

Not feeling a part of it and not having creative input doesn’t make you not in the band. He filled the roll of playing the drums. A part of portnoy’s job. The rest of the members filled out the rest of what he contributed for those albums. He was absolutely replaced. The just didn’t do that with a person who they wanted to write with. They knew that they could pull that weight themselves. I wouldn’t call that semantics. My whole point is that while someone can play Petrucci note for note it doesn’t sound like Petrucci playing Petrucci. To a greater degree, someone could potentially hit all the same notes as James. But their voice won’t sound like him. Non musician fans don’t care about a technical replication of a song, they want it to sound like what they are used to on the record. Petrucci and LeBrie contribute the most to the timbre of the band.

I can also tell that’s not Petrucci playing. That guy is slightly looser. Not in a bad way. Just on some of the rhythm parts he’s a little behind on where Petrucci would play and his legato isn’t quite as articulate as John’s. He swings it a little different than John does, because that’s how he feels the part.

FWIW: I used to love DT, and I’ve seen Petrucci play solo a couple times too.

What about them makes you think it's everything you don't like about prog?

Spock’s Beard sounds as much like Phish as it does Rush or Yes. Even Yes gets a little cheesy for me at times. Prefer Genesis or King Crimson. More than that, I prefer later versions of Prog that came in the form of bands like Big Wreck or Muse, than I like the early stuff. I don’t like it when music takes itself too seriously. Which is probably the main problem I have with Progressive bands. It’s pretentiously serious when the music is often incredibly cheesy. Greatly prefer Punk. Why spend 12 minutes, four keys, three time signatures, and two completely unrelated musical styles to say something that three chords, 2 minutes, and ABABCAB can say just as well?

 

[Sermo Lupi]

Not feeling a part of it and not having creative input doesn’t make you not in the band. He filled the roll of playing the drums. A part of portnoy’s job. The rest of the members filled out the rest of what he contributed for those albums. He was absolutely replaced. The just didn’t do that with a person who they wanted to write with. They knew that they could pull that weight themselves. I wouldn’t call that semantics. My whole point is that while someone can play Petrucci note for note it doesn’t sound like Petrucci playing Petrucci. To a greater degree, someone could potentially hit all the same notes as James. But their voice won’t sound like him. Non musician fans don’t care about a technical replication of a song, they want it to sound like what they are used to on the record. Petrucci and LeBrie contribute the most to the timbre of the band.

Nah, that's absolutely semantics. I understand what you're saying. It ultimately just boils down to how you are defining 'replaceable' and subjectively determining who it applies to and who it doesn't.

I can also tell that’s not Petrucci playing. That guy is slightly looser. Not in a bad way. Just on some of the rhythm parts he’s a little behind on where Petrucci would play and his legato isn’t quite as articulate as John’s. He swings it a little different than John does, because that’s how he feels the part.

With all due respect, I doubt you'd pass a blind test. And while we can argue all day over minutiae, the fact is that it makes no greater difference to the average listener than the subtleties of Portnoy vs Mangini you've already brushed aside as 'replaceable'.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Nah, that's absolutely semantics. I understand what you're saying. It ultimately just boils down to how you are defining 'replaceable' and subjectively determining who it applies to and who it doesn't.



With all due respect, I doubt you'd pass a blind test. And while we can argue all day over minutiae, the fact is that it makes no greater difference to the average listener than the subtleties of Portnoy vs Mangini you've already brushed aside as 'replaceable'.

Then I’ll strictly define the word. Replacement means that someone physically took another’s spot on stage and in the studio and the band’s career did not suffer as a result. Could someone effectively replace Petrucci on stage doesn't the project to not suffer? Possibly. Do I think it would fly? No. Do I think that Petrucci can be replaced in the studio? No. Portnoy contributed lyrics and and influenced style. Petrucci, and Myung are likely the biggest contributors to the writing process. Reasons? DT has consistently sounded like DT since their first album. The common thread? Those two. Every other member has been replaced at some point without hindering their career. I would argue that LeBrie’a vocal timbre is now a defining characteristic in their sonic profile. But could he be replaced on stage with someone as skilled that as has the same range? Sure. He doesn't write all the lyrics. Barely any IIRC.

I’m basing all of this on the bands continued marketability because it’s not a subjective thing. Final point. A large portion of DT fans are guitar players. In fact I’d say that they likely are the largest group if you looked at instruments fans play. Petrucci is the draw for them. DT is singularly known as a band because of Portnoy. He’s really good. But he’s not Tomas Haake. He doesn’t give people brain wreck when they hear him play like Petrucci has guitar players for decades. This shit about Petrucci is of course all my opinion because he didn’t get replaced.

The bottom line is, under those objective guidelines, Portnoy was replaced. Which renders any argument about him being in replaceable null. Full stop. We can go back and forth on Petrucci all day long, and it doesn’t really matter, because he wasn’t replaced. No one can actually know what would happen there unless it happens. Only the band knows who they’d be willing to carry on without and who they wouldn’t. And to be fair, that’s all that is ever going to really matter.

 

[Sermo Lupi]

Then I’ll strictly define the word. Replacement means that someone physically took another’s spot on stage and in the studio and the band’s career did not suffer as a result. Could someone effectively replace Petrucci on stage doesn't the project to not suffer? Possibly. Do I think it would fly? No. Do I think that Petrucci can be replaced in the studio? No. Portnoy contributed lyrics and and influenced style. Petrucci, and Myung are likely the biggest contributors to the writing process. Reasons? DT has consistently sounded like DT since their first album. The common thread? Those two. Every other member has been replaced at some point without hindering their career. I would argue that LeBrie’a vocal timbre is now a defining characteristic in their sonic profile. But could he be replaced on stage with someone as skilled that as has the same range? Sure. He doesn't write all the lyrics. Barely any IIRC.

Again, the pre- and post-Portnoy material is regarded as being quite different, and the significant influence Portnoy had on writing is widely documented in books, behind-the-scenes footage, and statements from the other band members. He and Petrucci shared co-producer credits alone. This is not a mystery.

The logic also isn't entirely sound here (e.g. you're 'begging the question' by assuming Portnoy's involvement wouldn't have changed the later records, and assuming that subtracting other members would have), but I don't want to harp on about this when you've already admitted you don't listen to the old DT material and that you don't listen to the side projects. In other words, you're mainly familiar with the post-Portnoy DT material, which is completely fine, it just isn't going to result in a productive discussion on this topic.

I’m basing all of this on the bands continued marketability because it’s not a subjective thing. Final point. A large portion of DT fans are guitar players. In fact I’d say that they likely are the largest group if you looked at instruments fans play. Petrucci is the draw for them. DT is singularly known as a band because of Portnoy. He’s really good. But he’s not Tomas Haake. He doesn’t give people brain wreck when they hear him play like Petrucci has guitar players for decades. This shit about Petrucci is of course all my opinion because he didn’t get replaced.

Love Thomas Haake, but it's just objectively incorrect to use him or anyone else to try to downplay Portnoy's audience and influence.

To use Modern Drummer as a metric, Portnoy's had five cover stories, 31 reader poll award wins (the most ever), 13 Best Progressive Rock drummer awards (the most ever), and was the second youngest drummer to be inducted into their Hall of Fame (behind only Neil Peart). Not only that, Portnoy continued to pile up those awards after leaving Dream Theater, including from other publications like Drum! Magazine where he won Drummer of the Year his 4th time in 2014.

Whether you personally like his playing doesn't change the fact has one of the largest fan followings of any drummer, which has given him a lot of success outside of Dream Theater as well as in it.

Of the two of them, Portnoy is likely more awarded as a drummer than Petrucci is as a guitar player. Not that it makes me respect one more than the other, but you're just arguing a moot point.

The bottom line is, under those objective guidelines, Portnoy was replaced. Which renders any argument about him being in replaceable null. Full stop. We can go back and forth on Petrucci all day long, and it doesn’t really matter, because he wasn’t replaced. No one can actually know what would happen there unless it happens. Only the band knows who they’d be willing to carry on without and who they wouldn’t. And to be fair, that’s all that is ever going to really matter.

What objective guidelines? You've provided personal opinions. And there's really no point engaging with you on this considering your histrionics here.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Again, the pre- and post-Portnoy material is regarded as being quite different, and the significant influence Portnoy had on writing is widely documented in books, behind-the-scenes footage, and statements from the other band members. He and Petrucci shared co-producer credits alone. This is not a mystery.

The logic also isn't entirely sound here (e.g. you're 'begging the question' by assuming Portnoy's involvement wouldn't have changed the later records, and assuming that subtracting other members would have), but I don't want to harp on about this when you've already admitted you don't listen to the old DT material and that you don't listen to the side projects. In other words, you're mainly familiar with the post-Portnoy DT material, which is completely fine, it just isn't going to result in a productive discussion on this topic.





Love Thomas Haake, but it's just objectively incorrect to use him or anyone else to try to downplay Portnoy's audience and influence.

To use Modern Drummer as a metric, Portnoy's had five cover stories, 31 reader poll award wins (the most ever), 13 Best Progressive Rock drummer awards (the most ever), and was the second youngest drummer to be inducted into their Hall of Fame (behind only Neil Peart). Not only that, Portnoy continued to pile up those awards after leaving Dream Theater, including from other publications like Drum! Magazine where he won Drummer of the Year his 4th time in 2014.

Whether you personally like his playing doesn't change the fact has one of the largest fan followings of any drummer, which has given him a lot of success outside of Dream Theater as well as in it.

Of the two of them, Portnoy is likely more awarded as a drummer than Petrucci is as a guitar player. Not that it makes me respect one more than the other, but you're just arguing a moot point.



What objective guidelines? You've provided personal opinions. And there's really no point engaging with you on this considering your histrionics here.

The objective guideline that they removed him from the position, put an entirely new person in there, and the band remained successful, both selling albums/music getting regular streams, and fans in seats at shows.

By what objective measurement do you need to satisfy you here? Because you haven’t exactly defined it here. Or are you just arguing to argue?

 

[Sermo Lupi]

The objective guideline that they removed him from the position, put an entirely new person in there, and the band remained successful, both selling albums/music getting regular streams, and fans in seats at shows.

Ah right, because if any of the other members left the band, it would simply cease to exist? I suppose all that belly-aching from DT fans for the last 13 years was a sign the replacement went as well as planned, not to mention DT double billing tours as Anniversary shows for Images and Words, A Change of Seasons and Scenes from a Memory. We're 10 pages deep on a Portnoy reunion thread because Petrucci got his preferred drum machine back, and dozens of publications just happened to report on it. This is clearly not a real conversation

In the event you're not trolling, I'm going to politely bow out here. My above comments lay out my perspective quite clearly and in more depth than I'm willing to continue on with this discussion. Cheers.

 

[prlgmnr]

put these last couple of pages to music and DT have got their next album sorted

a double cd and the title is Replaceable/Irreplaceable

edit edit edit: The Replaceable/The Irreplaceable

 

[Lukhas]

 

[Stiman]

That was an excellent interview/playthrough.

I do look forward to the other guys being interviewed about Mike coming back. Hopefully they get into a little more detail about it.

 

[KentBrockman]

Ok, when are we going to get a new DT album? I don't think we've ever been more than 3 years between studio releases.

 

[Esp Griffyn]

I’m basing all of this on the bands continued marketability because it’s not a subjective thing. Final point. A large portion of DT fans are guitar players. In fact I’d say that they likely are the largest group if you looked at instruments fans play. Petrucci is the draw for them. DT is singularly known as a band because of Portnoy. He’s really good. But he’s not Tomas Haake. He doesn’t give people brain wreck when they hear him play like Petrucci has guitar players for decades. This shit about Petrucci is of course all my opinion because he didn’t get replaced.

Are you saying that Portnoy wasn't and isn't a draw in DT?

If so, you must be new around here. Portnoy has been one of the most talked about and lauded drummers in metal since the mid 90s when DT really started gaining momentum. He was, and continues to be, one of the biggest superstar drummer names in music. Without question, his drumming was a huge draw for musicians of all types.

He was, for better and for worse, heavily involved with the writing of music and lyrics for DT up to his departure. Ironically, for all the damage that trend-chasing did to DT in the 00s, Portnoy was the only one brave enough to say that they had started to suck and needed a break to get their fire back.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Are you saying that Portnoy wasn't and isn't a draw in DT?

If so, you must be new around here. Portnoy has been one of the most talked about and lauded drummers in metal since the mid 90s when DT really started gaining momentum. He was, and continues to be, one of the biggest superstar drummer names in music. Without question, his drumming was a huge draw for musicians of all types.

He was, for better and for worse, heavily involved with the writing of music and lyrics for DT up to his departure. Ironically, for all the damage that trend-chasing did to DT in the 00s, Portnoy was the only one brave enough to say that they had started to suck and needed a break to get their fire back.

New around here?? Not hardly. My username used to be Thaeon. I’ve been relatively regular here for around 16 years. So, yes…. I’m aware of how important Portnoy is to DT, drumming, and this particular corner of the internet. I’m a drummer in addition to a guitar player, so I know he’s good. Especially since I’ve been listening to DT since I started playing guitar in 1993. I never once said the guy sucks. I said he got replaced and the band didn’t suffer financially as a result. Plenty people bitched and moaned about it. But they still bought tickets to shows. So clearly it wasn’t important enough to them to change the behavior that counted.