Post Modernism in higher education.

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will_shred

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Can we maybe stay on topic here, which near as I can tell is that Jordan Peterson wouldn't know what post-modernism is if someone hit him over the head with a copy of Of Grammatology? :rofl:

I agree with you there, I managed to read "structure, sign, and play", with great difficulty. I understand how Peterson can conflate actual post modernism with his "cultural marxism" but if you listen to a lot of Petersons arguments, especially when he gets into things like biblical interpretation, he sounds very post modern. Of course in order to criticize someone constructively, you have to have a decent understanding of that persons positions. That's why I initially became interested in Peterson, I think he has a lot of interesting stuff, especially in his field of expertise which is psychology. But like anyone, he isn't perfect, and he does tout some ideas that are still more ideological than logical.

Peterson on Derrida:




 
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fps

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All I can say is coming from an English literature and language background I don't at all recognise postmodernism in the way it's being defined here. It has far ranging political and social consequences as a way of thinking, but I do not recognise it as being linked with identity politics.
 

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Explorer

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Is this the same supposed free-speech advocate Jordan Peterson who claims to deal out harsh truths... but often threatens libel lawsuits when someone critiques his ideas? Because that spells "snowflake."

Explorer, I usually appreciate your input but this comment hasn't really contributed anything to the conversation. I haven't heard anything about Peterson threatening to sue his critics, and from what I understand that would be extremely out of character for him. You're gonna have to provide a citation for that claim.

That's why I asked if the Jordan Peterson being discussed was the same one whom I discovered by a simple Google search. Here's one example.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...-he-sees-harsh-truths-can-he-take-them-return

So again I ask... is the Jordan Peterson being discussed in the OP the same one for whom anyone can Google "jordan peterson lawsuit" and discover what you didn't when you presumably did a similar search?

Also, nobody here has made any mention of "snowflakes" besides you. The reason I wanted to make this thread is to get above that noise and actually talk about this issue in a reasonable way.

I made an honest effort to start reading through this guy's ideas, but discovered enough silliness and lack of academic rigor that I wanted to establish if the guy I was learning about was the same one whose ideas where being discussed. To me, that matters.

I am hopeful you'll tell me that these are actually two different people, of course.
 

diagrammatiks

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ok a few caveats.

1. I think Jon Peterson is an idiot.

2. I think he grossly and deliberately misrepresents really simple ideas when he tries to actually engage with any real post-modern theorists.

3. I almost got a phd in critical theory and postmodernism but fucking grad school is way harder then living at my parents and checking Internet forums all day.

With that out of the way. Identity politics is stupid as shit. But it's not a philosophy and it's not all of post-modernism. It's the result of a very narrow and specific reading of certain texts for a politicized purpose.

that being said..it's the popular political strategy that a lot of leftists are part. But it's not post-modernism.
 

will_shred

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That's why I asked if the Jordan Peterson being discussed was the same one whom I discovered by a simple Google search. Here's one example.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...-he-sees-harsh-truths-can-he-take-them-return

So again I ask... is the Jordan Peterson being discussed in the OP the same one for whom anyone can Google "jordan peterson lawsuit" and discover what you didn't when you presumably did a similar search?



I made an honest effort to start reading through this guy's ideas, but discovered enough silliness and lack of academic rigor that I wanted to establish if the guy I was learning about was the same one whose ideas where being discussed. To me, that matters.

I am hopeful you'll tell me that these are actually two different people, of course.


That he threatened to sue her for defamation is ridiculous, and hypocritical.

However, I think some of the statements made in the article are problematic. Especially this one

Manne is not the first person Peterson’s threatened with a lawsuit. In May, Wendy Lynne Lee, a professor of philosophy at Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania, tweeted that Peterson is an “incel misogynist” and “committed white nationalist,” in reference to an announcement that he would be a featured speaker at the Turning Point USA’s Young Women’s Leadership Summit."

I think those statements are completely ridiculous. Peterson to my knowledge has never defended incels, and he absolutely doesn't endorse white nationalism. I also disagree with the characterization that he is a misogynist. I have never seen him argue for "male superiority". He often cites that in the countries with the highest levels of gender equality, men and women willingly tend to pick different career paths. That's not to say there isn't overlap, because of course averages don't say anything about individuals. She also criticized his being invited to the young women's leadership summit. Which sounds more like envy to me than actual criticism. His discussion at the conference is also available to watch, so you can judge for yourself whether you think the characterizations in that article are accurate or not.



There's also this

The TA secretly recording the meeting, in which several professors questioned Peterson’s academic credentials and compared playing his comments in class to playing a speech by Hitler.

So, behind closed doors, several professors literally equated him to Hitler. To me that doesn't look good for the argument that there isn't an extremest left wing faction, at least at that school. Peterson has also made his position very clear on the Canadian Transgender bill. His criticism wasn't about recognizing people's gender identity, it was about how the bill was written. Specifically how vague and open ended the language to define discrimination was. He has said, I believe on the Joe Rogan podcast, that if a transgender student asked him to refer to them by their preferred pronoun, he would do so. His problem is with the state attempting to reinforce the evolution of language in that way. Which is more of a philosophical difference than him being transphobic.
 
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Ordacleaphobia

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I don't follow Peterson but to me it seems like you're doing the same sort of thing. You're creating a group identity of academics, and assigning them a largely SJW stance on things, despite them all being individual people with varying degrees of agreement on such issues, and further, varying degrees to which their own politics/biases infiltrate their teaching and professional lives. Your scope of academia is like .001% of instructors at .00001% of schools, and that's going to give you enough leverage to make claims about the group and its effect on society's trajectory? Seems like a little bit of a reach.

Of course it does! Because that's not what I'm saying at all.
I kind of thought it was a given so I didn't say it, but of course all people are their own autonomous person- I don't believe I made any blanket statements in that post. Nor did I intend to pass on the impression that I believe this is a ubiquitous thing in academia, I don't even think I referred to them as a group in the way you're implying. All I was trying to say was that yes, I've experienced it; and that yes, coupled with the stories I've heard from other people it's enough to be concerning to me. I had no idea that would be such a controversial statement- I even deliberately stated that I'm sure that most colleges and universities are different.
 

Adam Of Angels

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To add onto what I said above: suing for Libel/defamation is not a move against free speech. Indeed, if your speech is truthful, it will be defensible in court. Litigation alone is not an infringement, and free speech doesn’t mean that you are shielded by your speech. Considering that Peterson has spent decades criticizing identity politics of all kinds (including, and maybe even especially white supremacy), calling him a white supremacist should come with the risk of consequence.
 

narad

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Of course it does! Because that's not what I'm saying at all.
I kind of thought it was a given so I didn't say it, but of course all people are their own autonomous person- I don't believe I made any blanket statements in that post. Nor did I intend to pass on the impression that I believe this is a ubiquitous thing in academia, I don't even think I referred to them as a group in the way you're implying. All I was trying to say was that yes, I've experienced it; and that yes, coupled with the stories I've heard from other people it's enough to be concerning to me. I had no idea that would be such a controversial statement- I even deliberately stated that I'm sure that most colleges and universities are different.

Fair enough - basically read your posts backwards and I see you really did mention the anecdotal nature of it all with respect to academia. The guys treated like garbage bit is still ridiculous and blanketed.
 

Drew

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All I can say is coming from an English literature and language background I don't at all recognise postmodernism in the way it's being defined here. It has far ranging political and social consequences as a way of thinking, but I do not recognise it as being linked with identity politics.
Yeah, this. Broken record here, but if Jordan Peterson thinks identity politics is post-modernism, then he really doesn't understand post-modernist thought. :rofl:

EDIT - and, I guess, why that matters; I don't see how we cann have a conversation about post-modernism in academia, when the guy we're citing as proof that there is post-modernism in academia doesn't actually know what the fuck he's talking about.

If you want to have a conversation about identity politics in academia, then sure - go for it. But I think you might be better off changing the name of this thread, or, better, just starting a new one. Because if anything I'd say identity politics as a concept is inherently anti-post-modern.
 
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diagrammatiks

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Yeah, this. Broken record here, but if Jordan Peterson thinks identity politics is post-modernism, then he really doesn't understand post-modernist thought. :rofl:

EDIT - and, I guess, why that matters; I don't see how we cann have a conversation about post-modernism in academia, when the guy we're citing as proof that there is post-modernism in academia doesn't actually know what the fuck he's talking about.

If you want to have a conversation about identity politics in academia, then sure - go for it. But I think you might be better off changing the name of this thread, or, better, just starting a new one. Because if anything I'd say identity politics as a concept is inherently anti-post-modern.

this about sums it up.
 

Adam Of Angels

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Peterson has talked at length about the confusion you’re highlighting, Drew. You might want to look into that, but the abbreviated response is: postmodernism maintains that social structures are arbitrarily built for the sake of leveraging power for certain groups. The solution? Take the dominant group to task. What does that invariably entail? Bloody, illogical identity politics. Nobody accused these people of being intellectually honest.

Edit: in other words, postmodernism has it that there is no legitimate reason for there to be a dominant group, so identity politics is used to combat this unjust distribution of power. It’s not logically inconsistent until you get closer to the end game and realize that there is no philosophical underpinning, and that you’re being driven by nihilism and resentment.
 
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Adam Of Angels

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So, tl;dr, Peterson is an idiot, and the whole premise of this thread is kind of nonsensical? :lol:

That’s not what I was getting at. Peterson argues that postmodernism is effectively cultural nihilism, and that its critique on western culture has bloomed into full blown identity politics, which is predictable. He talks about how Marxism and postmodernism should be at odds with each other, but are somehow hand-in-hand on college campuses anyway. My point is that Peterson isn’t misidentifying whatever cultural force is spreading through academia - he’s identifying its absurdity. He’s a frighteningly intelligent guy, and I find that most of critics either aren’t understanding or aren’t trying to understand him, which is maybe even reasonable, since he often takes 3 hours to explain his point. Give him an honest chance if you find the time.
 

Drew

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If I'm using tl;dr to summarize an argument I'm unimpressed with, I probably don't have the time to give him three hours. :lol:

I'll say you summary makes a little more sense, allthough I'd probably want more info on, and likely would question, his assertation that Marxism and postmodernism go hand in hand. If he's referring to the Hegelian dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis and all that, then that's also well on the modernist and not postmodernist side of the debate. If by Marxism he means liberalism in the American political sense, however, then that's just sloppy, and makes it a lot easier to equate liberalism with identity politics being used to deconstruct the dominant power structure, and in fact that even makes a little more sense since identity politics aren't even the structure in play here, so much as the wedge used to go after it.

Still... if he takes three hours to get to the point, and because of that often gets confused with a misogynist or a racist, he's doing himself no favors and could probably use a good editor. :lol:
 

Adam Of Angels

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If I'm using tl;dr to summarize an argument I'm unimpressed with, I probably don't have the time to give him three hours. :lol:

I'll say you summary makes a little more sense, allthough I'd probably want more info on, and likely would question, his assertation that Marxism and postmodernism go hand in hand. If he's referring to the Hegelian dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis and all that, then that's also well on the modernist and not postmodernist side of the debate. If by Marxism he means liberalism in the American political sense, however, then that's just sloppy, and makes it a lot easier to equate liberalism with identity politics being used to deconstruct the dominant power structure, and in fact that even makes a little more sense since identity politics aren't even the structure in play here, so much as the wedge used to go after it.

Still... if he takes three hours to get to the point, and because of that often gets confused with a misogynist or a racist, he's doing himself no favors and could probably use a good editor. :lol:

He does a brutally good job at explaining how postmodernism and Marxism are married in present day academia (again, he acknowledges that they absolutely shouldn’t be, if only it’s proponents were being intellectually thorough and honest), but the basic gist is: again, power structures are arbitrary, and serve the dominant group (here you have your postmodernism). The solution is to dethrone the dominant group and evenly distribute/diffuse power (here you have your Marxism), but not before clearly identifying the dominant group and, of course, ranking the dispossessed by degree of oppression (here you have your identity politics) in order to keep the score straight.

In any case, the only people calling him a racist or a misogynist are morons, saboteurs, and the people parroting them, because he has several hundred hours of lectures on YouTube and none of it contains a single racist or misogynistic remark. The memes that poke fun at the far left for calling everything racist are describing real people, and the charge against Jordan is a perfect example of that. He’s built a career on dismantling identity politics, so he might literally be the last guy to play that game.
 
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