Problems with band member

[Cyanide_Anima]

RE: B's "strange behavior".
I've been in a band with a guy like this in the past. He's probably at least somewhat hung up on having something he can point to as his own personal contribution when he hears the band's recordings, I doubt he'd ever admit it directly but I'd guess that's why he's suddenly rejecting the new parts you guys wrote with him, it wasn't *just* him, it wasn't just his good ideas making the song better. It could be an ego thing, in which case it's really up to his own personality as to whether or not he can get past it. It could also be that while he was involved in the rewriting process he didn't feel that he really had much control over the creative decisions, the possibilities are broad and none of us here can really know anything beyond what we're told. That's a band discussion that needs to happen, ultimately.

With regard to the rest:
The way things are going right now isn't "professional" in the slightest, your band dynamic is bordering on toxic teenage relationship nonsense in band form; you're adults so, if you really want to have a band, communicate like adults.

Obviously this is a band that could function just fine with just the two members A and C, and probably should. However, those two have their own issues with regards to the band's long term goals. They are, to an extent, enabling B's failures by replacing his takes behind his back (a great way to create conflict if he were ever to find out). In doing so they've also chosen the path of least resistance and the least value; quietly replacing B's takes in secret and foregoing any opportunity to provide what could be valuable feedback, in favor of having their tracks how they want them, when they want them. Actions like this make it seem as though neither A nor C really want to take any sort of leadership role in the band and that they're committed to not directly addressing problems as they arise. Instead they favor simply letting things slide, wallpapering over B's shortcomings in the studio and hoping the guy figures it out on his own, or leaves of his own accord to allow them to have their project as they envision it. In this scenario A and C are at least partial contributors to failure and conflict, but they're unable or unwilling to recognize their own culpability, asserting instead that everything would be fine if it weren't for B's "strange behavior".

If A and C want the dynamic that can create a "fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches" they need to take a more active approach to band communication, or give up and just stick to being a 2 man studio-only project because the current state of things is band poison and it would only become more difficult to manage with more members.

As far as replacing parts without knowledge go that doesn't actually happen. They are edited into time, tuned into key, and notes moved around. This person is told that they are out of time, out of key, etc., (in a graceful and nice manner) but they tend to simply reject that appraisal and insist they are in time and that A and C are wrong. If B simply refuses to redo their parts A and C will imply fix or remove them so things don't stick out in an unpleasant way. B acknowledges the editing and doesn't protest the edits and approves the final product.

The edits themselves aren't really that much of a problem. Every vocalist gets edited. But having to edit nearly every syllable for time and pitch for a great number of tracks is extremely laborious. I've recently done a song with another vocalist in a completely different genre apart from this band. They were amazing takes and required zero editing for that modern, polished and layered pop vocal sound. It was more of a straight forward mixing and production situation and not a salvage operation. When asked to do a simple addition texture set of takes for effect on a section they did it without giving 7 reasons why they aren't going to record more vocals for this song.

The main issue other than trash talking all of our peers, is that person B is lazy with their efforts, seems to not be connected to reality, and relies on A and C to correct all the mistakes or even leave out parts that are objectively souring to the music. There are basically zero other possible options for replacement for this person as well. It's a very niche sub-genre, in an area not known for this sub-genre, and we all live in areas far enough from the notable music scene in the state for this to be an issue.

A and C work together well. Can constructively critique each other's work and can build upon each others work effectively and without childish reactions or insults. This just doesn't seem to be the case with B.

*Does anyone know of an effective way to motivate people to put more effort into a project? A way that is non-threatening and caters to egotistical vocalists?* Because there is good music in this person, they just don't put in the work to get it out.

 

[TedEH]

*Does anyone know of an effective way to motivate people to put more effort into a project?

IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.

As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable contributing more to your project?

 

[Necris]

Then I misread/misinterpreted that bit, my mistake.
Have you discussed what he actually wants out of the band, at all? Is this just something to do on the weekends for him or does he really want to be in a band long term? Is this experience actually valuable to him?

If it's an intrinsic motivation issue there isn't much that can be done on your end. Right now, it sounds like he doesn't seem to "want it" as badly as you both do, and the band as a whole is suffering for it. If he's a person who genuinely has the potential to be a good musician, but he's also a diva who thinks he's already a great one, then I don't know that you're going to successfully bring him back down to earth. Even if he objectively needs the practice, it's unlikely that he'll make lasting changes if he doesn't personally recognize their necessity so playing to his ego would only go so far, he might practice, but only temporarily as a "favor" to you; and he probably won't become any easier to work with as a person. You can try to convince him he needs to improve, but there's the risk he might just quit to protect his own ego rather than admit his shortcomings.

Ultimately, his personality will largely dictate whether you're facing a catch-22 or something potentially workable. Based on what you've described I think eventually parting ways with your current vocalist and seeking out some sort of workable replacement long-term is your best bet. I'm sure you've already thought of it, but if you do choose to move on and you're still in contact with that other vocalist consider asking them whether they know anyone who would have an interest in your band's music or to help get the word that you're looking for a singer.

 

[NoodleFace]

IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.

As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable contributing more to your project?

Dealing with this myself now. The band started out as a fun thing we weren't going to take seriously, but the other guys often show up forgetting everything we wrote the week before. Even their own parts. My patience is running really thin with it.

There are way more complaints too, but im not god's gift to guitar playing myself so I'll leave it at that.

 

[STRHelvete]

*laughs in one man band*

 

[LostTheTone]

IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.

As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable contributing more to your project?

I think that's a good way to frame it.

It sounds like the goal isn't to make this guy take the project seriously, its to make his contributions better. Maybe he is just tossing it off in two seconds and that's the problem. But he might just be a bit shit.

 

[ScottThunes1960]

Don’t know if it’s been posted yet, but Zappa’s reasoning for firing the entire ‘88 band was that “there’s no amount of money you can pay someone to do a job if they have an attitude that gets in the way of doing it.” It’s an excellent summary of Flake Musician 101, and grounding for how a bandleader deals with grumblings of mutiny.

 

[budda]

Decide how much bullshit you will put up with in the name of making music and go.

 

[LostTheTone]

Don’t know if it’s been posted yet, but Zappa’s reasoning for firing the entire ‘88 band was that “there’s no amount of money you can pay someone to do a job if they have an attitude that gets in the way of doing it.” It’s an excellent summary of Flake Musician 101, and grounding for how a bandleader deals with grumblings of mutiny.

Yeah, and I generally would endorse Franks view.

Of course, it's not perfectly analogous to this situation, since you're not paying the guy. But the rationale is the same, IMHO. I think you should still have a chat with him and establish if he really thinks his contributions are great or he is just not taking time or has other stuff on or whatever. There is some potential that you all just aren't seeing eye to eye about whatever, and straightening that out might well help. People often stick to a rut and resent it instead of deciding a new approach. But in the end, if you can't all get on the same page and can't find a reasonable way to work together either, then someone has to go.

 

[RevDrucifer]

*laughs in one man band*

Hahahah I’m doing the same thing.

That said, I joined a cover band last month because it’s been 15 years since I’ve played guitar in a band and I really missed playing live. The first month everything was going great, everyone was really cool, no egos or attitudes at all, just a bunch of bubbly, happy people. Then the bass player started sending these huge walls of texts between 1AM-7AM about having investors fly in to invest in the band…..we’ve barely had two practices and have about 10 songs that need a considerable amount of tightening up. I’m going to see where this goes for the rest of the month, more out of curiosity/entertainment than anything. From what I gather, the band is supposed to receive a $100,000 investment.

 

[Rev2010]

Then the bass player started sending these huge walls of texts between 1AM-7AM about having investors fly in to invest in the band

Cocaine perhaps?

 

[LostTheTone]

Cocaine perhaps?

I normally wouldn't but if you're offering...

 

[wheresthefbomb]

Dealing with this myself now. The band started out as a fun thing we weren't going to take seriously, but the other guys often show up forgetting everything we wrote the week before. Even their own parts. My patience is running really thin with it.

There are way more complaints too, but im not god's gift to guitar playing myself so I'll leave it at that.

I've been in this exact situation. Started off for funsies, but there was still a disparity in what that meant. I wanted to write songs, the other guitarist wanted to play kerry king solos, and the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends.

After meeting individually with the guitarist twice to write parts, only to have him show up at practice a few days later having totally forgotten our sweet dual guitar melody lines and playing more kerry king solos over everything, I called it.

The drummer had the self-awareness to tell me that he didn't have the motivation to write songs, that he just wanted to hang out and hit stuff. He didn't want to waste my time, I respect that to this day even though our friendship fell off for other reasons.

Nowadays, I open with and return often to, "what do you want out of this/what are your goals/what is your desired level of involvement?" I'm too old and too busy to work with anyone who isn't going to at least meet, if not push me past, my level.

 

[LostTheTone]

the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends.

Sounds pretty highly motivated by drummer standards.

 

[NoodleFace]

I've been in this exact situation. Started off for funsies, but there was still a disparity in what that meant. I wanted to write songs, the other guitarist wanted to play kerry king solos, and the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends.

After meeting individually with the guitarist twice to write parts, only to have him show up at practice a few days later having totally forgotten our sweet dual guitar melody lines and playing more kerry king solos over everything, I called it.

The drummer had the self-awareness to tell me that he didn't have the motivation to write songs, that he just wanted to hang out and hit stuff. He didn't want to waste my time, I respect that to this day even though our friendship fell off for other reasons.

Nowadays, I open with and return often to, "what do you want out of this/what are your goals/what is your desired level of involvement?" I'm too old and too busy to work with anyone who isn't going to at least meet, if not push me past, my level.

The problem of course is the drummer I've known for 20 years (and is REALLY bad, but I had hoped he was better since he joined a band and everythihng.. not the case).. and the other guys I'm now pretty good friends with.

Ah well..

 

[RevDrucifer]

Cocaine perhaps?

Well, I’m in South Florida and you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a dealer, so I very much wouldn’t be surprised. Add to that he told me last week he had a major issue with opiates in the past and actually lost his ex-fiancé to an OD last year. So maybe he’s speedballin’ it up or he’s one of the types that gets more active when he’s fucked up on opiates. Regardless, the “I’m on drugs” vibe is coming off him pretty fuckin’ hard.

Thankfully, I don’t have much time invested in this outside of learning the setlist, which was only a benefit to me. I’ll give it til the new year and see which direction things go in, but man, it certainly makes me glad I built a home studio and don’t have to rely on people to make music with. I just wanted to do this to have a good time crankin’ up a bit, nothing more than that.

 

[LostTheTone]

Well, I’m in South Florida and you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a dealer

HAHA I see what you did there, kudos!

 

[RevDrucifer]

HAHA I see what you did there, kudos!

Hahaha I wasn’t trying to slip anything funny in there, coke is still HUGE down here, I’m assuming like it was everywhere else in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s just a party favor down here and not really seen as a faux pas or hard drug like it is in New England where I’m from.

Like it’s never surprising or even mildly interesting to walk into the bathroom at a bar and see two sets of legs in a stall and hearing nothing but snorting coming out of it, it’s just how it is down here.

 

[LostTheTone]

Hahaha I wasn’t trying to slip anything funny in there, coke is still HUGE down here, I’m assuming like it was everywhere else in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s just a party favor down here and not really seen as a faux pas or hard drug like it is in New England where I’m from.

Like it’s never surprising or even mildly interesting to walk into the bathroom at a bar and see two sets of legs in a stall and hearing nothing but snorting coming out of it, it’s just how it is down here.

Man I remember the culture shock of seeing people who treat blow like its just no big deal. When I were a lad we thought we were so rebellious smoking the occasional joint in our local metal club (anyone remember when you could fucking smoke in a club?) but that was literally kids stuff. Just moving in circles where everyone knows the universal gesture for "dude, wipe your nose".

The first time I ever did the stuff was in a bar bathroom and I had just walked in when some dude came up from doing a line and said "Oh I'm sorry... Do you want one?". To which I, as a smart human being who deeply cared about his future, said "Fuck yeah buddy". And... I mean, the story worked out vaguely ok, right?

 

[RevDrucifer]

Man I remember the culture shock of seeing people who treat blow like its just no big deal. When I were a lad we thought we were so rebellious smoking the occasional joint in our local metal club (anyone remember when you could fucking smoke in a club?) but that was literally kids stuff. Just moving in circles where everyone knows the universal gesture for "dude, wipe your nose".

The first time I ever did the stuff was in a bar bathroom and I had just walked in when some dude came up from doing a line and said "Oh I'm sorry... Do you want one?". To which I, as a smart human being who deeply cared about his future, said "Fuck yeah buddy". And... I mean, the story worked out vaguely ok, right?

Hahahahahahahahaha

The first time I did it wasn’t that interesting, I barely even felt anything from it, but I moved to South Florida right before I turned 21 and found a job as a server in a restaurant, my last shift training was a day or two after my 21st birthday. I finished my shift by the afternoon and went across the street to a bar that had 2-4-1 Long Islands and slammed a few back, then when I left I saw a bunch of new co-workers across the street sitting outside of a Mexican joint.

So I stroll over and join the table, ordered a ridiculously sized margarita and I believe shots were ordered by someone. I was just happy to have found some drinkers and was very stoked I could finally legally drink. At one point, one guy said “I can’t work tonight, I’m way too shitfaced. Drew, want to work tonight?”, I immediately say “No way, I’m fucking tanked!”. Everyone at the table talked me into it, how they’d help me out and how much fun it is to serve tables drunk, so I rolled with it. It was NOT fun then, I was way too inexperienced and I was fucking up left and right.

At one point, someone who I’m still very close to to this day (she’s a sobriety coach now) pulled me aside and said “Take this and go in the bathroom, you’ll be fine after” and handed me a baggie. I had no clue about key bumps or anything at this point, so I pulled a straw out of my apron, stuck it in the bag and up it went. All of it. It was only a half gram, but still. Immediately I went “Ohhhhh shiiiiiit.”, I come out of the bathroom with my face all flushed, freaking out that not only might I have a heart attack (again, no experience) but I just did all my new friends coke in one shot. She gave me some shit for it and said “Have fun with that.” Dude, I was a fucking wreck. I took the same drink order at a table about 6x before the guests finally asked for management. They had me run food all night and eventually the GM put his arm around me and said “Welcome to Hops!” like I had just passed some initiation test or something. I thought for sure I was going to get fired because I was CLEARLY fucking wasted.

For a good 45 minutes I was just a wreck. And then we all left and did a bunch more blow for about 24 hours straight. Following that night, I think I had a bag in my pocket at all times for a good 3-4 months straight. It was like smoking a cigarette or having a cup of coffee to me. Then one day I just didn’t feel like doing it anymore, so I just did it socially at that point with a the occasional night or two or three we’d all hang out and just go nuts.

It’s been so prevalent down here that I very much view it as a casual drug, not really any differently than weed, just works in the opposite direction, but that’s the relationship I have with it, I know that’s not the case for others. I have plenty of friends who have been through the ringer with it, I just get sick of it after a night or two of doing it and I’m good for weeks/months without seeing it again.