PRS Lovefest

[MTech]

too hard to use your words without being respectful?
the reason you're paying more for CNC is that the end product, regardless of the fact that it still requires a LOT of hand work, is going to be significantly more accurate. Fret slots aren't jacked up and left to eye-ball-level effort, necks blanks aren't cut off-center (unless due to human error, i.e. glued up incorrectly) and carves are reproduced more accurately. I've seen both the Carvin and PRS shop videos previously, and I'm more than aware how their process works.
Not quite the same post, are they? Shocking that suddenly your "clarification" changes the meaning of what you said originally, both in content and tone.


Really? With KNIVES? I'd LOVE to see the pictures of Bernie hard at work with knives carving those guitars out. Please.

I don't see you speak respectfully what so ever,you attacked me for posting I LIKE PRS. I said I think they can be overpriced and that's not some big negative thing, I didn't say grossly overpriced, I just feel some cost too much for what I see.

If you'd care to keep it on topic then explain something that's actually relevant to answering why I feel they can be pricey. I'll give you a simple example of what I always see that makes me feel that way about the prices sometimes. You walk into a store and see THIS and it costs $3k it's got a nice 1/4in figured top, brand name pickups and hardware select woods etc. Look on the wall next to it you see a PRS, same woods, nice top, house brand pickups, good hardware and it costs $4200.
Please explain...

Maybe Riffer can explain more on the actual process of what goes into a PRS since he's over there and that would help. I'm sorry that I came on to say I actually really like PRS now and me saying they can be expensive makes somebody derail the entire thread, it's disgusting.

 

[Riffer]

 

[Bekanor]

My dad used to think electric guitars were made out of plastic.

I said "No Dad".

He said "Well what are they made out of then?"

I said "Wood, of various species and grades".

He said "Oh, well fancy that you learn something new every day".


We're still good friends to this day.

 

[BlindingLight7]

Conan, make me some popcorn plz

"OKAY MR.BLINDINGLIGHT7"

mmm mmm mmm, thank you conan

Fine, I'll just have bagged corn :c

All this flaming got me so worked up, better eat some popcorn to calm myself down

This thread is much better in 3d with popcorn.

 

[Key_Maker]

I see no 4,2K price in here, even with the 10 top option, just saying.

PRS 2011 Custom 24 10-Top with Pattern Thin Neck Electric Guitar | Musician's Friend

 

[Church2224]

I see no 4,2K price in here, even with the 10 top option, just saying.

PRS 2011 Custom 24 10-Top with Pattern Thin Neck Electric Guitar | Musician's Friend

I want that Sapphire Smokeburst... so badly.

 

[themike]

Maybe Riffer can explain more on the actual process of what goes into a PRS since he's over there and that would help. I'm sorry that I came on to say I actually really like PRS now and me saying they can be expensive makes somebody derail the entire thread, it's disgusting.

You of all people should have realized you would be playing with fire slinging shit like that from your experiences with the Rico threads. I'm not even going to tear apart your argument because I think Matt handled it well.

And to be honest, unlike other manufacturers who shroud in mystery on their builds and woodwork, you don't need to ask Riffer. Paul and company have uploaded very extensive videos on their youtube page covering EVERY single aspect of a build (both private stock and production) that you could possible think of in great detail.....

 

[HighGain510]

You of all people should have realized you would be playing with fire slinging shit like that from you're experiences with the Rico threads. I'm not even going to tear apart your argument because I think Matt handled it well.

And to be honest, unlike other manufacturers who shroud in mystery on their builds and woodwork, you don't need to ask Riffer. Paul and company have uploaded very extensive videos on their youtube page covering EVERY single detail you could possible think of in great detail.....

He won't be replying any time soon, he went and got himself banned again (shocker...) by mouthing off completely off-base to a moderator again. I don't even need to continue the argument (hence me dropping it earlier) but the point he was arguing is not only false but completely unfounded, I'm still scratching my head as to why he was struggling so hard to keep going somewhere with it?

Having seen what goes into a PRS, while I think the current "new" prices are a bit high for my tastes, I don't think they're completely out of line really. They put a LOT of work into putting out a consistent, high-quality product and they're going to charge for that. Nothing wrong with that especially when you see what goes into the process of putting out a PRS guitar. That and the guys working in the finish department at PRS have been putting out some SERIOUSLY awesome finishes as of late!

 

[purpledc]

I dont think anyone was arguing that prs makes a good product. And yes PRS guitars may be more accurate than the majority of handmade guitars. But lets be honest. The whole bit about guitars being more accurate and therefore more expensive is bullshit. That is simply the wool blanket people like Paul pull over your eyes and get you to believe because they have something they want to sell you. CNC was utilized in guitar manufacturing for one purpose and one purpose only. To cut costs. Most companies knew there was going to be a cnc backlash so they had to create a reasoning behind why they did it. Which is they will tell you to make a better and more accurate product. Is a newer PRS a more precise instrument? yes. Does it require nearly as many man hours and skilled laborers to complete as a full handmade piece? not at all. There is still a lot of hand work that goes into any guitar. But its delusional thinking to tell people that a guitar companies only motives for going cnc is to create a better product. Its first and foremost purpose is to increase profit margins. The story about a better product is simply the sugar coating of a bitter pill. Me personally, Ill take a CNC made guitar any day over a handmade. Ive had too many fucked up warrior guitars for my liking and Id rather get something like is being said, more accurate. But I simply appreciate a company that will pass some of the savings to its fans. Godin comes to mind when I think of a North american company who makes a decent product and doesnt face rape you in the process.

 

[soliloquy]

/\ that, and the whole 'knock on a piece of wood to create different tones that will make it a musical instrument'...dry wood always does that. its something other companies dont really care for, but prs acts as if its the holy grail.



eitherway, i found some really awesome prs pics that were too good not to post here. they were posted on mylespaul.com

 

[HighGain510]

I dont think anyone was arguing that prs makes a good product. And yes PRS guitars may be more accurate than the majority of handmade guitars. But lets be honest. The whole bit about guitars being more accurate and therefore more expensive is bullshit. That is simply the wool blanket people like Paul pull over your eyes and get you to believe because they have something they want to sell you. CNC was utilized in guitar manufacturing for one purpose and one purpose only. To cut costs. Most companies knew there was going to be a cnc backlash so they had to create a reasoning behind why they did it. Which is they will tell you to make a better and more accurate product. Is a newer PRS a more precise instrument? yes. Does it require nearly as many man hours and skilled laborers to complete as a full handmade piece? not at all. There is still a lot of hand work that goes into any guitar. But its delusional thinking to tell people that a guitar companies only motives for going cnc is to create a better product. Its first and foremost purpose is to increase profit margins. The story about a better product is simply the sugar coating of a bitter pill. Me personally, Ill take a CNC made guitar any day over a handmade. Ive had too many fucked up warrior guitars for my liking and Id rather get something like is being said, more accurate. But I simply appreciate a company that will pass some of the savings to its fans. Godin comes to mind when I think of a North american company who makes a decent product and doesnt face rape you in the process.

Sweet baby Jesus, why are you still continuing the already-ceased stupid argument dude? I tell you what, since your claim is, and I quote:

But its delusional thinking to tell people that a guitar companies only motives for going cnc is to create a better product.

How about you show me ONE video where Paul Smith states that the only motive he had for moving to CNC was to create a better product, and nothing else. That's what you're trying to say above, and again just like MTech's ridiculous argument, is completely invalid and has no basis in fact.

Also this:

Does it require nearly as many man hours and skilled laborers to complete as a full handmade piece? not at all.

First of all, calling the employees in a CNC shop "unskilled" by comparison is downright laughable and honestly offensive to said workers. You're a big Carvin guy right? You're saying the guys working in their shop are unskilled laborers? They still have folks working every stage of the guitar aside from the general carving that the CNC is doing, which might be the least skilled part of building the guitar other than running the wood through a planer. The work those folks are doing in a CNC shop is still skilled labor and requires many folks performing specific tasks. Does it not require as many man-hours for a process utilizing CNC versus not using CNC? Go read through the thread I already posted on the last page to inform MTech that he had no clue what he was talking about, it seems you might be confused as well.

Building a "full handmade piece" means what exactly? The only steps you're "skipping" when running CNC are rough milling/carving the wood for the body/neck/fretboard, you still have to do all the sanding and final carving, fretwork, paint etc. by hand. Again, read through the thread I posted regarding CNC and man-hours that go along with building a SINGLE guitar, I think you're making assumptions based on your uninformed opinion, and the information I posted in that thread is from a CREDIBLE luthier who has built both with and without CNC. I'll take verified FACT supplied by someone who is both an engineer and a proven talented luthier over the opinion of some random guy on a guitar forum any day of the week. I can only assume you too did not read that thread because if you had, you wouldn't be making such an obviously incorrect statement.

Again, still not sure why this argument continues, READ THE THREAD and inform yourself. A lot of folks seem to think themselves armchair luthiers all of the sudden, read some information supplied by someone in the industry with experience who has actually taken the time to put together a well-written explanation of the process and the amount of time each step actually takes.

 

[themike]

I suggest we lock this thread and make a "PRS FANBOYS LOL" thread that way all the stupid, argumentitive bullshit would be a banable offense
because this is ridiculous.

All those times I went into Carvin threads and Carvin NGD's and simply commented on how nice they are make me feel like I missed a golden oppurtunity to be an ass haha

 

[HighGain510]

I suggest we lock this thread and make a "PRS FANBOYS LOL" thread that way all the stupid, argumentitive bullshit would be a banable offense
because this is ridiculous.

All those times I went into Carvin threads and Carvin NGD's and simply commented on how nice they are make me feel like I missed a golden oppurtunity to be an ass haha

 

[ZEBOV]

*MTech spews bullshit again*.... *BANNED*
ZEBOV likes this.
Strange that it's not in the ban list. I hope his ban is permanent though. What a douchebag. He reminds me of David Skankle.

I'm trying to decide between a PRS Mike Mushok sig and an Ibanez RGD2127z. I know they're both very different guitars with very different prices, and *I think* I'll eventually own both. But which one first?

EDIT: His ban is only a month long

 

[BlindingLight7]

 

[themike]

I'm trying to decide between a PRS Mike Mushok sig and an Ibanez RGD2127z. I know they're both very different guitars with very different prices, and *I think* I'll eventually own both. But which one first?

Its all personal preference. They are both completely different beasts so I suggest you do your best to try them both before getting them. Ive played the Mushok and its great if thats what you are looking for, and I'm sure the Ibanez is also great for its price point.

 

[purpledc]

Sweet baby Jesus, why are you still continuing the already-ceased stupid argument dude? I tell you what, since your claim is, and I quote:



How about you show me ONE video where Paul Smith states that the only motive he had for moving to CNC was to create a better product, and nothing else. That's what you're trying to say above, and again just like MTech's ridiculous argument, is completely invalid and has no basis in fact.

Also this:



First of all, calling the employees in a CNC shop "unskilled" by comparison is downright laughable and honestly offensive to said workers. You're a big Carvin guy right? You're saying the guys working in their shop are unskilled laborers? They still have folks working every stage of the guitar aside from the general carving that the CNC is doing, which might be the least skilled part of building the guitar other than running the wood through a planer. The work those folks are doing in a CNC shop is still skilled labor and requires many folks performing specific tasks. Does it not require as many man-hours for a process utilizing CNC versus not using CNC? Go read through the thread I already posted on the last page to inform MTech that he had no clue what he was talking about, it seems you might be confused as well.

Building a "full handmade piece" means what exactly? The only steps you're "skipping" when running CNC are rough milling/carving the wood for the body/neck/fretboard, you still have to do all the sanding and final carving, fretwork, paint etc. by hand. Again, read through the thread I posted regarding CNC and man-hours that go along with building a SINGLE guitar, I think you're making assumptions based on your uninformed opinion, and the information I posted in that thread is from a CREDIBLE luthier who has built both with and without CNC. I'll take verified FACT supplied by someone who is both an engineer and a proven talented luthier over the opinion of some random guy on a guitar forum any day of the week. I can only assume you too did not read that thread because if you had, you wouldn't be making such an obviously incorrect statement.

Again, still not sure why this argument continues, READ THE THREAD and inform yourself. A lot of folks seem to think themselves armchair luthiers all of the sudden, read some information supplied by someone in the industry with experience who has actually taken the time to put together a well-written explanation of the process and the amount of time each step actually takes.







"If YOU actually took the time to read the thread I linked for you, you'd understand that the point you're too busy arguing to grasp is that the reason you're paying more for CNC is that the end product, regardless of the fact that it still requires a LOT of hand work, is going to be significantly more accurate."

The last paragraph in quotes is what I was referencing. You made a statement that the reason people pay more for a cnc product is because its more accurate. Im saying that that is bullshit. Accurate or not CNC work is less expensive. Just because something is more accurate does not mean that it actually cost more to make. The accurate part is simply the excuse to charge more. Maybe my words were a little to specific to limit it to the "sole reason" but my point that your statement is bullshit is valid.

The reason im bothering to argue my point is because if you have the right to take your position I have the right to take mine. You dont have sole authorship on this forum and you need to take a bite of the reality pie that others may not agree with you.

Another thing. You want to sit there and nitpick and go everyones posts that arent cohesive to yours with a fine tooth comb and point out all the faults how about some of yours? I never once said that CNC operators are unskilled. What I infact said is that CNC work takes less (in quantity) skilled workers to complete the job. Not that they arent skilled, but rather that not as many of such skilled workers are required.

And no it does not require as many man hours to utilize CNC as it does for a completely handmade product. It saves time because when a worker at carvin gets done putting a body and neck on the machine to get routed he can perform other tasks such as prep sanding and neck blank assembly while the machine is doing the work. You really think the guy programs the machine and just stares through the window while it takes 20 minutes to carve a top?

what a fully hand made guitar means is laying out a pattern with a template. Using a machine such as a bandsaw to cut out the basic shape of the guitar. Then if your really a skilled luthier and take pride in your work you grab a carving knife. YES A FUCKING CARVING KNIFE. And you carve the dish of the top by hand. Hamer used to use this process even into the early 00's. Believe it or not some builders wont even TOUCH a duplicarver let alone a cnc machine. This is also how many BC rich guitars were carved. You may not know this but many bc rich guitars were not blanked up on US soil. They were actually hand carved and assebled as blanks in mexico and then shipped to the US for final assembly and paint. And no these workers did not have many power tools at their disposal. IMHO a true handmade guitar can be made with the aid of power tools but they must not be aided by computer technology and must be guided by a human at all times. The CNC does much more than just the basic shape. It cuts control cavities, carves tops, drills all the necessary holes. At one point in time there were people whos only job was to carve a arch into a top. Then you would have a guy who only routed pickup and control cavities. There would be a worker who specialized in a certain step along the build process. This goes back to my point that they went to CNC to first and foremost cut costs.

and you want to know why I make the statements I make because I am in fact someone who builds and repairs guitars in my spare time. Thats how I know what it takes to build a guitar by hand. Ive read many books on how to build guitars by hand. And Ive been playing guitar for over 20 years and been a gear head for that many too. Ive spent time with many luthiers over the years and have discussed with them this very issue and any one who is in this business who doesnt have something to sell usually agrees that CNC production is great for a consistent product but in many ways took the human element out of the build process.

Now I in no way am against CNC. In many ways I prefer it as I stated. But man you have to sometimes just agree to disagree with people. Your opinion is not a fact its simply your opinion. It just disgusts me on how you take such a condesending tone with people you barely know such as myself. So I said something you dont agree with. And now that means I dont know anything about the topic? Paul reed Smith and New orleans guitars have a completely different way of manufacturing instruments. They both make an amazing product. But they will both tell you a different opinion on how they like things to be done. Does this mean that one of them doesnt know what the hell they are talking about? Ever hear the saying more than one way to skin a cat?

I never was arguing that CNC was bad, or that the people involved had no skills. That was you trying to find the fault in anything that contradicts your ideals. Im simply trying to make the point that PRS while it makes a fine product in many respects I feel is an overpriced product when there are many companies out there that can make a comparable product and charge less. And no Im not referencing carvin as I know their business model is completely different. And I also wanted to express that I felt that the idea that the reason why people pay more for a CNC guitar is because its more accurate is a bullshit statement and still is a bullshit statement and tomorrow after your first cup of coffee will still be a bullshit statement from now until the end of time.

At the end of the day I may be an FNG here but that doesnt mean my opinion isnt any less valid than yours. This is a community of many varying opinions. You are not a dictator and this is not your empire.

 

[elq]

yada yada yada

CNC vs "by Hand" and BC Rich guitars being hand carved in mexico have been discussed ad nauseum. Just ....ing stop it.

 

[soliloquy]

i'm not sure how i feel about this green :s
!

 

[themike]

stuff