PSA: Kiesel Guitars victim of mail fraud for 16 guitars

[Chokey Chicken]

☑ Mad hype
☑ Increased lead times
☑ QC issues with increasing frequency
☑ Decline in customer service
☑ .... talking customers
◻ Rant videos on youtube
◻ Refusal to ship guitars to some customers

This is why despite defending them in this thread, I'm a little hesitant to order another guitar. I'm waiting to see how it pans out before I buy anything else from them.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

That's pretty much why a lot of people are wary about the brand right now and calling them out on it. Happened with S7, Siggery, BRJ, DAR... It's history repeating itself.

 

[cg138]

Now that's a leap, placing these guys in the same brackets as scammers like that is pretty uncalled for..

 

[technomancer]

Now that's a leap, placing these guys in the same brackets as scammers like that is pretty uncalled for..

Yeah that's definitely stretching things a bit far.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

Just jumping in for a quick questions guys, I read somewhere on here that Kiesel was getting a lot of flock on FB and Instagram too, but I didn't see anything but positive support on there posts. Is all this just on SSO or am I literally blind?

 

[hardvalve]

Just jumping in for a quick questions guys, I read somewhere on here that Kiesel was getting a lot of flock on FB and Instagram too, but I didn't see anything but positive support on there posts. Is all this just on SSO or am I literally blind?

They just delete negative comments. So yea, nothing negative on there. That awesome PR department.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

That's what I assumed... Thanks fam!

 

[Edika]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread and it seems that the issue has really evolved a lot. Before reading the 8+ pages added I was still under the impression that a heist took place in the Carvin headquarters.
Anyway I don't have anything else to add as we don't have all the information of what went down, even though there were some quite logical points made for the insurance and freight situation. The main thing that bugged me in this whole situation is the snarky tone from whoever was posting with the Kiesel account. I assume that's one of the reasons that account was banned.

 

[jwade]

I really miss the days when Carvin was just 'that reliable company that does excellent semi-custom work for a good price'. It seems like regardless of the specific situation, anytime the public face is involved, there's a fairly noticeable level of ego involved, coupled with what seems to be really thin skin and a desire to attempt to spit fire immediately online at anyone that says anything even vaguely negative/unsupportive of the Kiessel brand.

It's a bummer that they got scammed, but at the same time, it gave them an opportunity to really stick their foot in their mouth again, and until they resolve their very serious PR/online presence issues, it's perhaps a positive outcome in that it let more people here see their current mindset.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

That's what bums me out about Carvin/Kiesel having a "face" now. When they had something else new, they just announced it. When they have something cool to show off, they just... did.

Now, Jeff has to be included to show off "his" new prouduct, new feature, etc etc. Everything related to Kiesel is "his". I started noticing that during the first NAMM show when Kiesel was the new brand name. Jeff referred it to as "his" booth.

You're spot on when you mention egos being involved. I miss it when it was just Carvin, not "Jeff Kiesel presents..."

 

[beneharris]

That's what bums me out about Carvin/Kiesel having a "face" now. When they had something else new, they just announced it. When they have something cool to show off, they just... did.

Now, Jeff has to be included to show off "his" new prouduct, new feature, etc etc. Everything related to Kiesel is "his". I started noticing that during the first NAMM show when Kiesel was the new brand name. Jeff referred it to as "his" booth.

You're spot on when you mention egos being involved. I miss it when it was just Carvin, not "Jeff Kiesel presents..."

Totally. Did you see his Christmas picture where he made his whole family hold guitars?

 

[A-Branger]

With the whole Kiesel drama and them pulling out their adds in here and everything that happened I found this to be pretty funny:

Look at the add I got lol

not only now I still have Kiesel adds in here, but the most funny part of it is that one of those 3 guitars just happens to be the one with the photo matching top going wrong drama

LOL

its like if Kiesel were trying to get back at us hahahaha

*Disclaimer*
I know, this is just A JOKE. Relax!!, Im not acusing anyone to have done anything.. This is a big coincidence due to my recent browser history. Thats what it is, so stop now before you all get your tin foil hats on

 

[yellowv]

Totally. Did you see his Christmas picture where he made his whole family hold guitars?

If I see one more picture of a guitar with Jeff Kiesels forearm tattoo in it I'm going to kill myself.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

Now that's a leap, placing these guys in the same brackets as scammers like that is pretty uncalled for..

While they're not quite on the same level of .... as the guys they were eluding to, you can't just ignore a lot of the red flags.

It's exactly as they said. Excessive hype, longer and longer lead times, more frequent errors in construction, and the decline in customer service/shit talking customers outright.

These are things that have actually happened, and we've seen it happen many times before. I won't go ahead and say I think Kiesel is on it's way out the door, but I'd like to see a bit of dust settle before I consider sending them more of my money, because it's a little scary how repetitive history is with this sort of thing.

Fwiw, I don't think the errors are that frequent, and longer lead times are part of a growing business. Still, Jeff's attitude is not too far off from the likes of S7G or something of the like. He really is full of himself. I even remember someone saying that the fade from one color to another color on a guitar was a little abrupt, and Jeff proceeded to say that if he had personally done it, it would have come out much better, though he still stuck by the work of "his guy." It really rubs me the wrong way, and he should look into hiring a new face/PR guy or something.

Eh, I feel like I'm going a bit too far with all this. Basically, the long of the short is that the company and personalities involved are looking a little familiar. It's not unreasonable for people to be concerned with what might come next. I hope they can chill out and power on because I really do like their guitars.

 

[jc986]

Most of the issues that you guys are citing as similarities to those other companies are being driven by simply having a lot more orders than they are used to handling. Do you guys really not expect the lead times to increase with a lot larger volume of orders coming in? When companies grow too fast they aren't able to hire quickly enough (or if they are then they can't ramp the new employees up quickly enough). They are taking in more orders than they ever did under the Carvin brand. The spec errors and quality errors are occurring for the same reason. Decline in customer service? I would have to believe it's due to a lot higher volume of contacts from customers (due to more orders and the growing pains causing more issues for customer service to handle). These things should be corrected once Kiesel gets settled into their new facility and hires more employees.

The defensiveness over the errors, black listing customers because they weren't happy with the product they paid for, and the general attitude in their public responses definitely does need to change though.

 

[Forkface]

Exactly, it's more like Jeff beveled the truth.

This thread peaked here guys, we can close shop and go home.

 

[oneblackened]

Most of the issues that you guys are citing as similarities to those other companies are being driven by simply having a lot more orders than they are used to handling. Do you guys really not expect the lead times to increase with a lot larger volume of orders coming in? When companies grow too fast they aren't able to hire quickly enough (or if they are then they can't ramp the new employees up quickly enough). They are taking in more orders than they ever did under the Carvin brand. The spec errors and quality errors are occurring for the same reason. Decline in customer service? I would have to believe it's due to a lot higher volume of contacts from customers (due to more orders and the growing pains causing more issues for customer service to handle). These things should be corrected once Kiesel gets settled into their new facility and hires more employees.

This is true. Carvin isn't the first custom brand we've seen have this problem in the last few years. Skervesen went through the same issues when they had the "Bulb effect" happen to them (that is, Misha bought a guitar and then a whole ton of people bought them and they couldn't keep up).

The defensiveness over the errors, black listing customers because they weren't happy with the product they paid for, and the general attitude in their public responses definitely does need to change though.

This is very true. It's the most basic bit of PR, you make things right when you make a fault, not blame the customer.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

While they're not quite on the same level of .... as the guys they were eluding to, you can't just ignore a lot of the red flags.

It's exactly as they said. Excessive hype, longer and longer lead times, more frequent errors in construction, and the decline in customer service/shit talking customers outright.

I keep seeing this mentioned, and I don't want to come off as someone taking sides, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way.
How bad are these 'errors,' exactly? Because from what I've seen, the flaws coming out of the Kiesel shop (minus everyone's favorite paint job, that was a train wreck) have all been pretty minor, stuff that's easily fixable.

When you say 'error in construction,' I tend to think of the work that Etherial, Rico, etc put out where there were parts that flat out didn't fit. There were structural errors. Guitars were shipped with incorrect hardware, specs were off, etc. That's the kind of thing that would concern me, not so much things like a shoddy fret job or a mis-aligned logo. Sure, that type of thing is a pain in the ass and I'd certainly be pissed if my brand new $2k+ guitar needed a fret job out of the gate, but it could be much, much worse.
So I've got to agree with technomancer and his hypnotic avatar that drawing those lines is a bit of a stretch at this point.
If we start seeing some serious issues like this becoming more than a 'once in a blue moon' occurrence, maybe. But as for right now, I think all that they really need is an attitude adjustment and their problems will start to disappear.

 

[big_aug]

That's the kind of thing that would concern me, not so much things like a shoddy fret job or a mis-aligned logo. Sure, that type of thing is a pain in the ass and I'd certainly be pissed if my brand new $2k+ guitar needed a fret job out of the gate, but it could be much, much worse.

This kind of complacency is exactly what we don't need. If you spend $2000 on a guitar, it should be perfect in every way. That doesn't mean it will have all the best features or exotic woods. It means that every thing that is included on that guitar is flawless. Anything less from a "custom shop" like Kiesel is unacceptable. There is no excuse for it. It doesn't matter the brand on the headstock. Once "custom shop" comes up and we're spending thousands, it has to be perfection. Even a tiny cosmetic flaw is an epic failure at that point. It's not like we're buying used guitars from some guy in the classifieds.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

It's not complacency, it's taking a step back and looking at scope.
I agree, a $2000 guitar should be perfect. But of course, that will never always be the case.
In the event that something goes wrong and you have a shop churning out product with errors, what type of errors are more severe? One that costs you a couple hundred bucks and a week of inconvenience, or one that renders your entire purchase more or less useless?

I'm not saying #KieselDidNothingWrong. I'm saying that comparing Kiesel to BRJ and the like is overkill. Saying that a janky logo = a tweaked neck is like saying that assault is the same as murder. Both are wrong, both are bad, both shouldn't be happening, but comparing one to another is really overdoing it.

That type of attitude is the line of thinking that gets your legitimate criticisms discarded. If I were Jeff Kiesel and I saw people comparing me to Bernie Rico I'd call you guys a bunch of jokers too, and that aspect of truth in there wouldn't get recognized. It's good that people are speaking out about their flaws and making their qualms with the company known so that nobody gets blindsided, but nobody's getting Rico'd yet, not by a long shot.