PSA: Kiesel Guitars victim of mail fraud for 16 guitars

[thrsher]

Also, we don't know all the details, but if the stolen goods crossed state lines, FBI involvement could be just a consequence of that.

Didn't Carvin have an embedded RFID circuit that you could swipe to know guitar was stolen? Snagg, I think it was, is it still installed in Kiesel guitars?

they stopped the RFID a few years ago

 

[bostjan]

Also, we don't know all the details, but if the stolen goods crossed state lines, FBI involvement could be just a consequence of that.

Didn't Carvin have an embedded RFID circuit that you could swipe to know guitar was stolen? Snagg, I think it was, is it still installed in Kiesel guitars?

I don't think those were ever stock. Also, not that anything is necessarily true, but it was stated that the guitars were headed to Indonesia.

 

[cwhitey2]

Honestly, if one discounts the exacerbated hate posts or conspiracy theories that appeared in the thread (which, let's face it, aren't really the bulk of the posts here), I see nothing that implies people wish to see the company go down in flames, or that somehow the products magically became subpar.

The major point of contention is related to public image and how the company presents itself and relates to the customers, and a number of other things mentioned are logical consequences of something else (example: if I have a baseline 1% QC error tolerance and ramp up my production from 1000 to 10000 guitars a month, there are 10 times more duds in reality, but they are still just 1% anyway, and there isn't any concrete data regarding an increased defect rate).

Using myself as an example here, I like the product and I find that it is a very competitive semi-custom manufacturer with a price point that is incredibly hard to beat and an established, many decades old tradition - in the US, it's very hard to beat that in the price segment, assuming anyone can. What I feel is lacking is the quality of communication, and one can't forget it's often how you convey the message, rather than the message itself, that will determine whether feedback is positive or negative regarding a given interaction.

I understand the gamble of going balls out to create hype and a relentless marketing snowball to drive orders through the roof, and I understand the logistic challenges the success of such an endeavour will bring, even though I am personally not too keen on the OTT approach to marketing, but in no point of such a tough process, for the good of your own company, you are to respond to customer feedback as if everything is a personal attack to the love of your life, and it's often best to take the finger away from the Enter key and wonder if how you conveying your point of view, which is now the company's point of view, is the best way to do it.

tl;dr - I and many others here are expressing concern more than anything else, and certainly not fulfilling the ultimate goal of the Kiesel Eradication Cult after taking our blood oath. Both extremes on the thread are either on the "burn, destroy!" or excessively apologetic camps, but neither appears to be the norm IMO.

I want to start a slow clap for Fred.

 

[TheKindred]

I want to start a slow clap for Fred.

 

[Drew]

It's a shame though to see a company that makes some great products and presents great value is making so many bad moves on the social media and customer support front. It's nothing that a little restraint, professionalism, and time can't fix. I hope they choose to go down that road.

You know, this in a nutshell is the problem - it's not that I'm so concerned with the quality of the *product* reading this thread (though, there have been enough QC issues raised of late that I am), it's that this situation makes me concerned about the quality of the *management.*

I'm not sure how much ownership/control Carvin still has over Kiesel, but assuming they have the authority to do so, I'd be thinking long and hard about whether Jeff Kiesel was really the right guy to be running this company.

 

[jc986]

You know, this in a nutshell is the problem - it's not that I'm so concerned with the quality of the *product* reading this thread (though, there have been enough QC issues raised of late that I am), it's that this situation makes me concerned about the quality of the *management.*

I'm not sure how much ownership/control Carvin still has over Kiesel, but assuming they have the authority to do so, I'd be thinking long and hard about whether Jeff Kiesel was really the right guy to be running this company.

Carvin and Kiesel are now completely separate business entities, so Carvin has absolutely zero control or affiliation with Kiesel at this point. If I had to guess, I would imagine Kiesel was given limited rights to continue the use of the Carvin name brand during a transition period. I feel like that transition period is likely pretty short, and that would help explain the aggressive, hype filled Kiesel campaign they've been running. They want to make sure as many people as possible know about the Kiesel brand prior to them no longer to be able to use the Carvin name. They have begun making it so the Carvin logos are no longer available, even on some older models that were introduced when they were still under the Carvin banner. And of course any new models are Kiesel only logos.

 

[ferret]

Note that Mark Kiesel is the president of the company, Jeff is VP.

 

[Alberto7]

Carvin and Kiesel are now completely separate business entities, so Carvin has absolutely zero control or affiliation with Kiesel at this point. If I had to guess, I would imagine Kiesel was given limited rights to continue the use of the Carvin name brand during a transition period. I feel like that transition period is likely pretty short, and that would help explain the aggressive, hype filled Kiesel campaign they've been running. They want to make sure as many people as possible know about the Kiesel brand prior to them no longer to be able to use the Carvin name. They have begun making it so the Carvin logos are no longer available, even on some older models that were introduced when they were still under the Carvin banner. And of course any new models are Kiesel only logos.

Wait, what?! They don't offer the Carvin logo anymore? Not that branding matters to how well an instrument plays, but it certainly holds some sentimental value to some customers, (myself included) especially now that the Kiesel name is somewhat tainted in some people's eyes.

I guess it'd be like changing Jackson to, idk, Ferguson, (??) and not being able to order anything with the Jackson logo ever again. Still the same guitar, but a different name.

Note that Mark Kiesel is the president of the company, Jeff is VP.

That's what keeps going through my head. Mark was always in charge of the company, and it ran pretty smoothly under his management, even if it sometimes went a little under the radar. I wonder what he thinks of all this now, given how conservative he is.

 

[jc986]

Wait, what?! They don't offer the Carvin logo anymore? Not that branding matters to how well an instrument plays, but it certainly holds some sentimental value to some customers, (myself included) especially now that the Kiesel name is somewhat tainted in some people's eyes.

I guess it'd be like changing Jackson to, idk, Ferguson, (??) and not being able to order anything with the Jackson logo ever again. Still the same guitar, but a different name.

Any models that have been released since their breakaway from Carvin can only be ordered with the Kiesel logo. Also they are doing only the Kiesel logo now on multiple of their other models including the carved tops, DC7X, I think the DC800, possibly others. There are still several of their older models that can be ordered with the Carvin logo, but seeing that they are kind of stepping through the older models and one by one revoking the ability to order with the Carvin logo I'd say a complete phasing out of the Carvin brand over the next couple of years.

I could be completely wrong here, but it definitely seems like that's the direction their heading.

 

[Electric Wizard]

All of their carved top models are only available with the Kiesel branding now.

KieselGuitars.com Newsletter 05/01/16

 

[Stuck_in_a_dream]

Sorry if this has been posted before in the thread, but it's (almost) over now:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kiesel/16-missing-guitars/867338623387972?hc_location=ufi

Here, quoted from FB post:

16 Missing Guitars
JEFF KIESEL·THURSDAY, MAY 19, 2016
I am going to keep this Note page going to keep you all updated on the ongoing 16 missing guitars here at Kiesel Guitars.

International Fraud - 16 guitars all purchased from Indonesia were all a case of international fraud. Before I get into this, Yes we are still going to sell Direct Internationally (except China and Thailand - where we have dealers). Thanks to some new security measures put in place I don’t see this type of thing being able to happen ever again.
Status of the 16 missing, all guitars were destined for Indonesia - Freight Forwarding companies here in the US were being used to get these from the US to Indonesia. 1 has been delivered to the customer in Indonesia 1 is being held by Indonesian Customs and will be rerouted back to us 1 was seized by the Portland PD today - thank you officer Joseph Santos! 1 was in California at My American Shipper (freight forwarder) and was turned around - thank you Matthew! 4 were at Vyking Ship and are now turned around - Huge thanks to Clinton! 1 was in Florida at BedaBox (freight Forwarder) and was turned around 1 was in Delaware at Air Mail Post now turned around 6 are still at a shady freight forwarder called 360Zebra, they have not answered the phone nor replied to my numerous emails
So this shady Freight Forwarder called 360Zebra here is their address: 3 guitars were delivered to 360Zebra California facility (hopefully still there) 20275 Business Parkway Drive, Walnut CA 91789 3 guitars were delivered to 360Zebra Delarware facility (hopefully still there) 70 Mccullough Dr., New Castle DE 19720
So guys that is it, the whole thing.... Thank you all for the support you have given us in this time, as it is we have 9 guitars on their way back - 1 in Indonesia - 6 at a freight forwarder that is really shady....
5/20/16 The first one just showed up here at the shop! CT6M serial#131725 Buckeye Burl Top Carved Top......

5/23/16 I was actually able to get in touch with Mr. Huang at the LA office of 360Zebra today (freight forwarder that has the 6 remaining guitars, 3 in LA and 3 in DE) he was actually very helpful and tracked down all six of the remaining guitars. We issued return labels for the 6 and with any luck 360Zebra will follow through and get our guitars coming back! If this happens, we will only have lost 1 out of the 16 and who knows maybe even get that one back as well. I will continue to update you guys!

EDIT:

As was pointed out by Edika, the one guitar that got delivered in Indonesia is still missing, but it seems all the other are now accounted for, and on their way back to Kiesel Guitars.

 

[Edika]

^Good news that it seems only one guitar might be lost. Unless they catch the guy and that is returned to Kiesel/Carvin.

I guess it'd be like changing Jackson to, idk, Ferguson, (??) and not being able to order anything with the Jackson logo ever again. Still the same guitar, but a different name.

Just to sidetrack the discussion a bit, didn't this happen back in the day with Charvel and Jackson? Jackson started as a budget line for Charvel, putting out Charvel models with the Jackson name and then Jackson became more popular thus flipping the tables? If I remember correctly the original soloist and dinky was a Charvel model but now it's only Jackson that makes them. Some more experienced Jackson aficionados can correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Lemons]

You'd think he'd take out the all the parts about the "really shady" freight forwarding company after they'd gotten in touch with him and organised to send the guitars back.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

Just to sidetrack the discussion a bit, didn't this happen back in the day with Charvel and Jackson? Jackson started as a budget line for Charvel, putting out Charvel models with the Jackson name and then Jackson became more popular thus flipping the tables? If I remember correctly the original soloist and dinky was a Charvel model but now it's only Jackson that makes them. Some more experienced Jackson aficionados can correct me if I'm mistaken.

Not quite, no. They were born from Charvel, yes, but not because they were a new budget line. What actually happened was Randy Rhoads approached them with an idea for a new model (the guitar that would become the Rhoads V), but it was such a radical departure from Charvel's usual models that Jackson decided to give it a different branding. It ended up being a hit, of course, and the brand grew from there.

 

[schantist]

Kiesel calling a freight forwarder shady? Takes one to know one, I guess...

 

[marcwormjim]

Ban-worthy, corny joke:

There are no shades with Kiesel - Only bevels.

 

[frahmans]

why did it have to be someone from Indonesia being the root cause of the fraud? giving a bad name..

 

[bostjan]

why did it have to be someone from Indonesia being the root cause of the fraud? giving a bad name..

1. Bad people live everywhere people live.

2. I have a coworker who lived in Jakarta, and he said it's like the Detroit of Indonesia. I lived in Detroit, so I looked up statistics on theft:

Jakarta: 61.03/5000
Detroit: 83.93/5000

Hmm, looks like Jakarta's a lot safer than Detroit, actually. Detroit's theft statistics are closer to Port Moresby's.

 

[MrWulf]

Meanwhile, over at the Gear Page.
I love the sterling customer interaction of whoever is behind this and Kiesel's other accounts.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

The thread that keeps on giving.