Quantizing Guitar and Bass

[cerebrate42]

I've been having some trouble with quantization, and couldn't find a question like this on any forum.

Like most djent, I'm working on recording material that's incredibly complex rhythmically, and, when doing polymetrical stuff in 13/16, 15/16, 17/16, etc., recorded guitar and bass parts have to be absolutely spot on. However, I've been going in and doing all the fine editing manually... and it's getting old veeeery quickly.

First and foremost then, I suppose I should ask, when producing the kind of rhythmic stuff that Meshuggah, Periphery, Animals As Leaders, TesseracT, etc., do, what's the "best" approach for dealing with these rhythms? NO ONE, not even Thordendal, plays these rhythms straight up perfectly. It's not humanly possible.
So, what I'm asking is, production-wise, what's the best way to approach this? They quantize their guitar parts, right? If so, how?

This brings me to my original question:
I have MIDI parts (i.e., bass drum) programmed with the exact rhythms that I'm recording on guitar and bass. Can I somehow make these bass drum MIDI parts into a groove, which I then use to quantize/audiowarp my recorded guitar and bass parts?
I'm using Cubase 5.
I read the manual, but couldn't find an answer.



Thanks!

 

[The Uncreator]

The imperfections in a persons playing are what make it sound good. If you need to manually edit it afterwards, it should really only be for effects (like the inhuman start/stop thing), or to make up for some sort of latency which produces a slightly delay. If you are editing every single part you play, then you aren't playing it on time, that simple. Your better off playing as tight as you can, and then quantizing the drums to fit your groove, will sound more human. No riff is too complex to play on time, If it is, then it probably sounds like shit anyway

 

[Winspear]

They do play it 'perfectly'. By that I mean enough to not need editing. Indeed the small differences sound good - but if it's enough to hear as needing editing then you need to work on your timing. It's true, it's hard as fuck and takes a lot of work with a metronome. Being a recording musician is a whole new level.
Yes some editing on the guitars is fine but if you're having to do more than 1 note a bar (even that is still quite a lot) then it's the playing that needs work.

In direct answer to your question, yes there are usually ways to quantize the transients of one track to another. I have no idea about Cubase. Try a forum

 

[cerebrate42]

Thanks for the responses.

This is what I was thinking. Obviously, I don't want the quantization to be absolutely perfect--then one can tell (we see (hear) this all the time with programmed drums).

The thing is, although these players are absolutely amazing, what ends up in the final recording is DEFINITELY not what they just record straight off (and I'm talking about more than just eq'ing). Editing does take place. You can just tell by how it sounds.

So, what I should really ask then, is is this editing just done manually? Or is there a program/plug-in/technique/etc. commonly employed?

I'm not saying that I need quantization to "sound right"; I'm saying I'm going for that (what some people call) "over-produced" sound that makes djent so distinctive.

I'm talking about minimal quantizing; that's the thing. I'm talking about the difference between the recorded tracks, and the final tracks--after editing. The overdubs in these bands are seriously as tight as 64th notes off.
I'm not talking about playing the rhythms so poorly they're 16ths or more off. But it is absolutely impossible, regardless of how good a player one is, to play the stuff these guys play perfectly. You're just limited physiologically.

Is this not discussed a lot? I would think it would be, djent being such a rhythmically-complex music.

 

[cerebrate42]

"Your better off playing as tight as you can, and then quantizing the drums to fit your groove, will sound more human."

This is the approach I've been taking, with some manual cuts and slides here and there.

Is this what most people do?



Thanks again everyone!

 

[Winspear]

Editing does take place yes. Wouldn't call it quantization though. I dunno man, Monuments for example isn't edited. And you can see a lot of tracking videos of these bands where the takes clearly don't need editing.
But yes, a manual edit here and there sure. I doubt most bands use actual quantization.
Humanizing the drums to the guitars is indeed a good idea, I do that sometimes. As long as your double tracked guitars match each other well then you're probably tight enough.

 

[MetalSlab]

You can detect and shift transients around quite easily in Logic - have not tried quantizing, but it will sync instruments tracks nicely to add tightness. Not sure whether this helps you at all though (unless you export those tracks into a Logic session for this purpose).

Actually, I have a feeling that Melodyne does this very thing and may be a plugin option for you with Cubase - you will have to check up on this as I am not 100% certain.

 

[jsaudio]

I know several engineers that edit every time the pick hits the strings right to the grid. Which I personally think is far too much. I edit guitars a lot but primarily on tight chug parts that need to be tight. Edit the chugs and stuff lined up with the kick hits. Takes a lot of time to get it right.

 

[cerebrate42]

I know several engineers that edit every time the pick hits the strings right to the grid. Which I personally think is far too much. I edit guitars a lot but primarily on tight chug parts that need to be tight. Edit the chugs and stuff lined up with the kick hits. Takes a lot of time to get it right.

So you just cut before and after the transient and align it by hand?

That's what I've been doing too.

It just takes so long, haha.

 

[jsaudio]

Yea basically lol. Yea it takes forever but it's worth it in the end.

 

[Zer01]

That's what I do too. Every single note. I cut it just before the transient and stretch it. Yeah it's a pain but it's worth it. When doing this across 4 guitars, the ear can't even hear the editing. I do a lot of copy and paste too.

People may criticize, but I long ago realized I'd never be a great guitarist. Pain and numbness in my hands prevent that. I'm not concerned with whether I can play it live because I can't. I tell people that up front. I just want to make something that sounds cool.

Reaper has a split and quantize option that makes things faster but it's not as accurate. I use that sometimes.

 

[Drew]

The thing is, although these players are absolutely amazing, what ends up in the final recording is DEFINITELY not what they just record straight off (and I'm talking about more than just eq'ing). Editing does take place. You can just tell by how it sounds.

Some editing may occur, yes, but what the players play (at least, the players of that caliber) is actually pretty damned close to what you hear. Their music may be incredibly rhythmically complex, yes, but Thorendal for example has spent decades practicing those complex rhythms, and is a VERY tight player for it.

Editing will make a performance sound a little tighter, but if it doesn't sound pretty good before you start, then you should go back and re-record.

 

[WhiteWalls]

I practiced those super-edits a while ago just to experiment, and I noticed that while you certainly gain tightness, you lose the stereo effect of the guitars to the point where quad tracking feels useless. I had a lot of trouble to mantain a good wide sound while using the same amp/cab left and right, and sometimes the waveforms line up in such a way that it comes out mono in the center because it's just too perfect

 

[JamesM]

Don't record music you can't play. Hehe.

 

[RickSchneider]

Yeah my drummer writes like half of the guitar parts for our band with me doing the other half. While sometimes i splurge and write something which takes work to nail, our drummer writes stuff which are my nightmare. It comes down to the old phrase of "Practice makes perfect" (sigh), which can be just as tedious as quantizing the guitar.

But hey, atleast you can play it to other people any time you want after you practice!

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

As soon as I read "djent is incredibly complex" as an excuse for editing everything to pieces I knew this thread would make me want to kill myself.

Just play tighter. Watch J-browne.

 

[MetalSlab]

Quad-tracking is effectively the reason why most big producers actually do sync transients on complex tracks to retain tightness. I see these things as going hand-in-hand.

I would agree that there should be no need to edit this way with only single or double tracked rhythm parts if the playing is tight, but quad tracking is another story to get right sometimes...

 

[Drew]

JamesM and Stealthdjentastic win.

 

[MetalSlab]

Not sure whether anyone 'won' at answering the guy's question.... unless there is some sort of latent bravado award up for grabs?

 

[ArrowHead]

I'm sad inside, seeing how many people think bands and producers are over-editing their guitars.

Practice to a metronome. Learn the parts. Play them tight. You don't quantize guitars - quantize is for midi. And you don't typically need to edit and realign tracks in the way described throughout this thread.

Any time someone says that's how the big boys do it, ask for an example...