RAN guitars offline. Did they close? Update: Trouble Relocating

[Wolfhorsky]

A one off, four times

Four times? I feel corrected. But easy with that hatred. 99% companies started by making copies.

 

[Fred the Shred]

Oh sweet, the "why many people dislike small builders being copied and don't equate that to big brand copies" discussion again.

Anyhoo, great move from the other Polish builders. I'd shower them with praise if this NAMM a single one of them had got me some Soplica.

 

[StevenC]

Four times? I feel corrected. But easy with that hatred. 99% companies started by making copies.

Yeah, you're probably right. But there's a difference between making one or two knock offs at the start and a mature business built around it.

 

[ArtDecade]

Yeah, you're probably right. But there's a difference between making one or two knock offs at the start and a mature business built around it.

JHS

 

[diagrammatiks]

JHS

If it’s for worship then it’s ok.

 

[StevenC]

JHS

Much like with amps, there's only so many circuits.

 

[ArtDecade]

Much like with amps, there's only so many circuits.

Copying a circuit and claiming it as your own is different than cloning. JHS straight took credit for a Devi Ever design and was called out for it by Devi. Then, the whole DIY community took it upon themselves to find that every circuit JHS claimed as their own "after extensive R&R" was absolute BS. No one cares if you copy/clone. Just give credit where credit is due. JHS and Co. are toss-pots.

 

[Kleks]

Copying a circuit and claiming it as your own is different than cloning. JHS straight took credit for a Devi Ever design and was called out for it by Devi. Then, the whole DIY community took it upon themselves to find that every circuit JHS claimed as their own "after extensive R&R" was absolute BS. No one cares if you copy/clone. Just give credit where credit is due. JHS and Co. are toss-pots.

And what that has to do with Ran closing down?

 

[ArtDecade]

And what that has to do with Ran closing down?

Read the thread and see where people started discussing cloning. You have 7 posts - I am not here to do summaries for you.

 

[StevenC]

Copying a circuit and claiming it as your own is different than cloning. JHS straight took credit for a Devi Ever design and was called out for it by Devi. Then, the whole DIY community took it upon themselves to find that every circuit JHS claimed as their own "after extensive R&R" was absolute BS. No one cares if you copy/clone. Just give credit where credit is due. JHS and Co. are toss-pots.

Didn't know about that. My experience of JHS has been fairly recent and all the cloning has been upfront and honest. Thanks for the info.

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

Read the thread and see where people started discussing cloning. You have 7 posts - I am not here to do summaries for you.

Telling him to read the thread is fine but this high school drama clique bullshit of judging people on post counts is probably a little bit of a short sighted way to go about things. Actually never mind I have twice as many posts as you so that means I’m way better than you lol. I subscribe to the system now

 

[ArtDecade]

Telling him to read the thread is fine

The Edge Lord giveth.

but this high school drama clique bullshit of judging people on post counts is probably a little bit of a short sighted way to go about things. Actually never mind I have twice as many posts as you so that means I’m way better than you lol. I subscribe to the system now

The Edge Lord taketh away.

 

[Jonathan20022]

This is a little more than petty guys, at this point having a side discussion somewhere else about it would be a much more productive debate.

I've talked about copies and such with Narad before, and I've never put thought into the morality of it until our discussion. And in our context it was about brands copying the general blackmachine silhouette, which is similar in some regards because Blackmachines were completely unavailable so some companies, including Skervesen copied the design 1:1. Others put their own spin on the design which I find more acceptable.

In general direct copies in places that have next to no chance of securing the product being copied is generally harmless in my eyes. There's several accounts of people saving up for a RAN in this thread for a long period of time, if one of those folks wants a Blackmachine I highly doubt many would save 3 - 4x the amount to buy a Blackmachine. Nor be lucky enough to secure a build whenever a batch does get finished at random like they have been. Someone who was never going to buy a Blackmachine securing a copy of it does no harm to the original luthier because them being a customer of the original is already very unlikely.

This is also an entirely subjective matter, so there's no objective line to draw. Narad doesn't support certain luthiers because of certain hobbies, and while I don't see eye to eye with that he has every right to. @possumkiller How would you feel about RAN copying a Regius headstock or body, and providing it at their price point vs the Mayones price point. Not only would it be producing a "cheaper" Regius, but one from a neighboring partner, I don't think the comparisons have to end at Daemoness/Gibson, etc. I'd argue you also have a personal line in the sand you can say would be too much of a copy for you to feel comfortable with.

I'd have zero gripes with someone copying Darren's (decibel) designs, it's still wrong but as subjective as the point is I'd have less problems with it because Darren is a scumbag who abused his clientele.

 

[Nightside]

@possumkiller How would you feel about RAN copying a Regius headstock or body, and providing it at their price point vs the Mayones price point. Not only would it be producing a "cheaper" Regius, but one from a neighboring partner, I don't think the comparisons have to end at Daemoness/Gibson, etc. I'd argue you also have a personal line in the sand you can say would be too much of a copy for you to feel comfortable with.

Considering 90% of the population in Poland can't afford Mayones since they blew up internationally and raised prices, I wouldn't be surprised and wouldn't blame them. The only thing is Mayones only does their own designs now which are further away from traditional designs. People here pretty much still want traditional stuff like Fender, Gibson, PRS, and Jackson type shapes. Only now it's easier to get your hands on a decent budget import version of these so I don't think they can even compete pricewise anymore.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Considering 90% of the population in Poland can't afford Mayones since they blew up internationally and raised prices, I wouldn't be surprised and wouldn't blame them. The only thing is Mayones only does their own designs now which are further away from traditional designs. People here pretty much still want traditional stuff like Fender, Gibson, PRS, and Jackson type shapes. Only now it's easier to get your hands on a decent budget import version of these so I don't think they can even compete pricewise anymore.

I thought this debate was over but since it's still going I may as well throw my hat in.
The bolded part is way more important than most on this site give credit to. People just like certain aesthetics. People also have a finite amount of capital. Even someone like myself who is a major guitar nut and recognizes / desires quality craftsmanship cannot afford to buy something like a Mayones. It doesn't matter if I want to or not, I mathematically cannot do it without some major reallocation of priorities. So where is the harm in me buying a guitar that looks, feels, and quacks like a Mayones, but isn't?

People say it's poor form to rip from smaller luthiers because they put blood, sweat, and tears into their brand and reputation, they make design improvements, their level of quality is higher, etc. But this feels like a null argument to me (in this context- individually these statements are true). Lets run with the Mayones example. If I want a Mayones, I want a Mayones for 1 of 3 reasons:

1. I know Mayones builds excellent, bulletproof guitars and I want an instrument that will not let me down.
2. I love the look of the Setius / Regius / Duvell / etc.
3. I'm shallow and want one because they're "cool" right now.

Looking at this list, which of these reasons REQUIRE a genuine Mayones guitar? Only #1. Coincidentally, I would argue that that's the biggest selling point for their entire brand.
Quality.
You can't impersonate quality.

I've said this on this forum dozens of times by now- I am a mega Blackmachine fan. I have never seen a design that speaks to me the way the Blackmachine shape does.
Realistically, will I in the foreseeable future be able to purchase one? No, absolutely not; but I want to. Because while I can have my copy, I know the quality of the original will remain a factor of what I want. The nuances and attention to detail are missed by the impersonators- the lip on the headstock is off, the body is too thick, the headstock is too short, the gap the strings stretch over is too shallow, etc- let alone quality that affects playability. Siggery, Mercer, and the like had a draw to people like me, because they (mostly, lets not get carried away) got the design right, and the quality was 'good enough'. Now, if I had the means? I would have my B2, no question.

You let the quality of your brand set you apart. If looks are enough I'll go copy. If I need the whole package, I'd get the genuine article. The guy that buys the RAN Regius wants a Regius, but needs a guitar that's still great. The guy that buys a Regius wants the full package, top tier everything.

Unless it's a straight up forgery, I don't have any defense of those at all.

 

[lurè]

You can rip off all the headstocks and designs you want but if you can't provide quality with your instruments, well, your business won't last very long.

 

[coreypla]

Dear Isurez,

Would I be able to talk to you about this at all? I had tried messaging you.

I was not going into details, but this is one of the solutions we use. Also there is no split so if you paid for example 900 EUR deposit then this entire deposit goes to your Skervesen Guitars build.

 

[Fred the Shred]

My one gripe with this whole copy ethics discussion is that it's taking place here, on a topic where companies are helping the customers of another company that is going through tremendous financial stress get actual guitars built.

The morals of the copy thing are incredibly varied, and while I have my own share of past gripes with RAN copies, they are totally irrelevant given the topic at hand. This sort of thing is fuel for some really interesting debate, but this is like debating the merits or faults of BRJs when shit hit the fan and people were completely in the dark regarding what the fate of their money would be.

 

[SDMFVan]

I remember them making a slew of these back in the day too...

 

[diagrammatiks]

I don’t care about copying at all.

Just thought I’d throw that out there.