RAN guitars offline. Did they close? Update: Trouble Relocating

[Velokki]

The mass e-mail send under the pretence that it was individually composed and addressed for each customer (from what I understand) is a red flag. Trying to please some customers with half-finished gear and return of deposit may sound logical but I also do not see it being plausible. If you have assets and money, you will use them to get back on your feet and will not be concerned with customer A and customer B.
After all, what is the difference to brand damage from pissing off 1000 people and having some assets to get by or pissing off 900 people and being dead broke.



I remember being attacked in the past (not in this forum of course) when I simply mentioned Ran guitars. I did not promote them or anything but fans of several brands were pissed off when they first appeared years ago.
My view was always this, if the big companies cared about their fans, they should have established European custom shop branches. It is not that hard to pull it off (for some time at least, the big companies would last longer), given the sheer number of garage luthiers selling axes for 3-5ks nowadays. I am not implying sending luthiers over but franchising and giving the right to established locals with guidance from the HQ.
As I said, the damage from shipping from the USA, plus the custom office fee, plus the currency change and bank fees are a deterring factor for many to order a custom guitar/bass.

That's actually a great point. Why haven't bigger brands built local custom shops for European customers?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

My view was always this, if the big companies cared about their fans, they should have established European custom shop branches. It is not that hard to pull it off (for some time at least, the big companies would last longer), given the sheer number of garage luthiers selling axes for 3-5ks nowadays. I am not implying sending luthiers over but franchising and giving the right to established locals with guidance from the HQ.
As I said, the damage from shipping from the USA, plus the custom office fee, plus the currency change and bank fees are a deterring factor for many to order a custom guitar/bass.

I don't get how wanting a particular guitar entitles folks to getting that guitar at the price they choose.

It's cool to want certain things, and it's a bummer that we can't afford them sometimes, but that doesn't mean we can be less-than-ethical to attain them.

I'm not saying RAN is the "luthier devil", they were a very small operation that likely had zero impact on the brands they copied.

That's actually a great point. Why haven't bigger brands built local custom shops for European customers?

It costs millions of dollars to set up modern guitar custom shops.

The amount of guitars they'd have to sell over decades to recoup that cost is prohibitive.

If it was feasible, and more importantly a good business decision, we would have seen it happen already.

 

[diagrammatiks]

I don't get how wanting a particular guitar entitles folks to getting that guitar at the price they choose.

It's cool to want certain things, and it's a bummer that we can't afford them sometimes, but that doesn't mean we can be less-than-ethical to attain them.

I'm not saying RAN is the "luthier devil", they were a very small operation that likely had zero impact on the brands they copied.



It costs millions of dollars to set up modern guitar custom shops.

The amount of guitars they'd have to sell over decades to recoup that cost is prohibitive.

If it was feasible, and more importantly a good business decision, we would have seen it happen already.

Why don’t corporations with accountants and business directors do this one shit thing that benefits me.

Why. Why. Why. Why.

 

[narad]

if the big companies cared about their fans, they should have established European custom shop branches.

They care about profits first, naturally.

 

[LeviathanKiller]

Does anyone have a good thread link to the RAN builds that were copies that maybe show/indicate what they were copies of? Just curious. I haven't followed their entire history very well.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Does anyone have a good thread link to the RAN builds that were copies that maybe show/indicate what they were copies of? Just curious. I haven't followed their entire history very well.

There weren't ever very many on this forum.

They were mostly Jackson, Dean, and ESP copies, some BCR too. Headstocks, similar logos, and all.

 

[ArtDecade]

Anyone know of a custom shop where I can get a RAN copy made? I love custom copies of custom copies.

 

[Xaios]

Anyone know of a custom shop where I can get a RAN copy made? I love custom copies of custom copies.

Too bad Ed Roman isn't still alive, this is probably his biggest fantasy.

 

[mlp187]

Anyone know of a custom shop where I can get a RAN copy made? I love custom copies of custom copies.

I have two new superstrat coming out: the Flusher and the Wipemachine.

 

[canuck brian]

My view was always this, if the big companies cared about their fans, they should have established European custom shop branches. It is not that hard to pull it off (for some time at least, the big companies would last longer), given the sheer number of garage luthiers selling axes for 3-5ks nowadays. I am not implying sending luthiers over but franchising and giving the right to established locals with guidance from the HQ.
As I said, the damage from shipping from the USA, plus the custom office fee, plus the currency change and bank fees are a deterring factor for many to order a custom guitar/bass.

You want luthiers to go from being self employed to part time employees on the side on top of their normal lutheiry. Do you have any idea the logistical nightmare of that would be? Now you're dealing with new tax laws, where the payments go, insurance, shipping, custom costs (who's paying) and the list will go on for quite some time. That doesn't even take into account if the luthier working on the guitar just outright fails or has huge issues like RAN is seeing right now. Now the parent company takes a reputation hit and they're probably going to respond with lawyers.

If you genuinely think this is doable, write out what's needed to make it happen legally and on the books before the first plank gets planed. After that, figure out which luthiers reliably and consistently make awesome product at 3-5k that will take a downgrade in pay as well as now having a boss. The list for that will be most likely empty.

 

[sezna]

If the big companies cared about their fans? No, they care about money. People are not entitled to products or offerings from companies. We don't complain that Mayones didn't open up a separate shop in America, but that doesn't mean they just don't care about their customer base.

Rolex's lack of production in China, and the booming Chinese Rolex clone market, has nothing to do with Rolex's lack of care for the Chinese economy...they sell tons there. Perhaps bad analogy but you get my point.

 

[LeviathanKiller]

You want luthiers to go from being self employed to part time employees on the side on top of their normal lutheiry. Do you have any idea the logistical nightmare of that would be? Now you're dealing with new tax laws, where the payments go, insurance, shipping, custom costs (who's paying) and the list will go on for quite some time. That doesn't even take into account if the luthier working on the guitar just outright fails or has huge issues like RAN is seeing right now. Now the parent company takes a reputation hit and they're probably going to respond with lawyers.

If you genuinely think this is doable, write out what's needed to make it happen legally and on the books before the first plank gets planed. After that, figure out which luthiers reliably and consistently make awesome product at 3-5k that will take a downgrade in pay as well as now having a boss. The list for that will be most likely empty.

Not to mentioned you'd likely have different quality levels too

 

[Flappydoodle]

I think it's gullible to think they're putting together some list of whose naughty and nice and will reward some and not others based on things like strongly worded letters from lawyers that mean absolutely nothing.

Well, Dariuz's own email says they are drawing up a list of customers.

As for business insolvency, I'm quite familiar with how it works in the UK. I assume Poland is similar. At a certain stage of the process, they absolutely do get to decide who gets what out of the left-over money. A letter is zero effort and helps get your foot in the door. They usually prioritise customers/suppliers who made contact vs. those who do nothing. That's fact.

Shame to see a luthier that had credibility* established over a relatively long period of time (at least in the world of custom builders) go under, especially if they were indeed screwed over by a third party.

*Credibility for their customers. The blatant design infringement they used to pull is another matter entirely. Given that the company was pretty much built on a foundation of IP theft, there is a certain karmic justice to them being screwed out of said business by third party fuckery themselves.

Regardless of whether the business deserved its end, the builders clearly took pride in their craft as evidenced by generally widespread praise for the quality of the instruments they produced, and they deserve better. At least, those that weren't knowingly complicit in profiting off the designs of others do.

I liked the look of their guitars, and almost did an order. But yep - the cloning of other guitars was a bit dodgy. And also, their communication was shit. I'd ask a list of 3 questions, and I'd get one sentence answering only one of them.

And for anybody still holding onto hope, the fact that they disappeared for MONTHS and then send one single email, full of typos, lacking a proper explanation, should be a HUGE red flag.

 

[narad]

A letter is zero effort and helps get your foot in the door. They usually prioritise customers/suppliers who made contact vs. those who do nothing. That's fact.

Sounds like a highly subjective non-fact to me? Some weirdo publishing statistics on who gets what back with and without writing an extra email of contact?

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Sounds like a highly subjective non-fact to me? Some weirdo publishing statistics on who gets what back with and without writing an extra email of contact?

so....you are advocating be uber patient and don't bog them down with silly requests for product or refund?

 

[narad]

so....you are advocating be uber patient and don't bog them down with silly requests for product or refund?

I'm saying that praying to the great God of handmade guitar refunds is likely equally effective at prioritizing your spot as is writing an email.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I'm saying that praying to the great God of handmade guitar refunds is likely equally effective at prioritizing your spot as is writing an email.

so you're saying there's a chance lol

 

[777timesgod]

I don't get how wanting a particular guitar entitles folks to getting that guitar at the price they choose.
It's cool to want certain things, and it's a bummer that we can't afford them sometimes, but that doesn't mean we can be less-than-ethical to attain them.
It costs millions of dollars to set up modern guitar custom shops.
The amount of guitars they'd have to sell over decades to recoup that cost is prohibitive.
If it was feasible, and more importantly a good business decision, we would have seen it happen already.

I did not mean that grabbing a forgery or a copy of a trademark design is ethical. I meant that the extra costs, on top of the USA guitar price, for European customers are a big weight.
I completely disagree that it takes millions to set up a modern custom shop, did all of the recent luthiers who came out the last decade and were a success begin with a venture capitalist backing them? Yes, money will be needed and that is the investment that the big guitar companies should consider.

They care about profits first, naturally.

Profits are lost from people who do not buy your product and buy a copy instead. Not to mention the market share lost and the opening of one's perspective to new brands.

You want luthiers to go from being self employed to part time employees on the side on top of their normal lutheiry. Do you have any idea the logistical nightmare of that would be? Now you're dealing with new tax laws, where the payments go, insurance, shipping, custom costs (who's paying) and the list will go on for quite some time. That doesn't even take into account if the luthier working on the guitar just outright fails or has huge issues like RAN is seeing right now. Now the parent company takes a reputation hit and they're probably going to respond with lawyers.

If you genuinely think this is doable, write out what's needed to make it happen legally and on the books before the first plank gets planed. After that, figure out which luthiers reliably and consistently make awesome product at 3-5k that will take a downgrade in pay as well as now having a boss. The list for that will be most likely empty.

I never mentioned part time, you make assumptions. Regarding the luthier failing, are the big brands infallible? Look at some of the crap coming out of their CS, flaws and inconsistencies are present sometimes.

Multinational companies of different industries branch out and franchise, only guitar companies are so autistic and backwards in their dealings. Yes, it will be hard but a worthwhile investment. It does not need to begin as a massive operation. Personally, I work for a company which opened factories in other continents. Was it a bitch to get started, yes. Were several problems that rose unforeseen, yes. Did we plow through and reach profit, again yes. Difficulty does not dictate if a business decision should be made, short and long term feasibility do.

Regarding the money needed, I would like to remind you all of the millions dumped by Gibson and Fender on investments (in other areas than guitar making) which led to their bankruptcy. Clearly, an effort could have been made for a European custom shop. We saw Dean and B.C Rich produce some Czech guitars which are highly sought after years later by collectors and are considered some of their best in quality.

You seem pissed off just because I mentioned this, calm down. No one said that you have to give out of your own pocket or that you need to close your shop. It was just a comment on something that thousands of guitarists wish was true. Maybe I am wrong and every single effort will lead mathematically to failure.

Billions are spent each day, in the corporate world, for various projects. Not all come through but at the same time not all fail. There is potential in a European custom shop, the sheer amount of people giving literally thousands to garage luthiers of unknown brands who began building months ago (many from this forum) is proof that there is a chance. I am not implying that it will be smooth sailing or that it will 100% work.

 

[narad]

Profits are lost from people who do not buy your product and buy a copy instead. Not to mention the market share lost and the opening of one's perspective to new brands.

You can try to make this case for this but it is literally the sole purpose of the guitar company to make money, so I think it's silly to think that you've discovered some untapped market that they're not aware of. If they're not opening up a European facility, it's probably because it financially does not make any sense for them to do so.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I did not mean that grabbing a forgery or a copy of a trademark design is ethical. I meant that the extra costs, on top of the USA guitar price, for European customers are a big weight.
I completely disagree that it takes millions to set up a modern custom shop, did all of the recent luthiers who came out the last decade and were a success begin with a venture capitalist backing them? Yes, money will be needed and that is the investment that the big guitar companies should consider.



Profits are lost from people who do not buy your product and buy a copy instead. Not to mention the market share lost and the opening of one's perspective to new brands.



I never mentioned part time, you make assumptions. Regarding the luthier failing, are the big brands infallible? Look at some of the crap coming out of their CS, flaws and inconsistencies are present sometimes.

Multinational companies of different industries branch out and franchise, only guitar companies are so autistic and backwards in their dealings. Yes, it will be hard but a worthwhile investment. It does not need to begin as a massive operation. Personally, I work for a company which opened factories in other continents. Was it a bitch to get started, yes. Were several problems that rose unforeseen, yes. Did we plow through and reach profit, again yes. Difficulty does not dictate if a business decision should be made, short and long term feasibility do.

Regarding the money needed, I would like to remind you all of the millions dumped by Gibson and Fender on investments (in other areas than guitar making) which led to their bankruptcy. Clearly, an effort could have been made for a European custom shop. We saw Dean and B.C Rich produce some Czech guitars which are highly sought after years later by collectors and are considered some of their best in quality.

You seem pissed off just because I mentioned this, calm down. No one said that you have to give out of your own pocket or that you need to close your shop. It was just a comment on something that thousands of guitarists wish was true. Maybe I am wrong and every single effort will lead mathematically to failure.

Billions are spent each day, in the corporate world, for various projects. Not all come through but at the same time not all fail. There is potential in a European custom shop, the sheer amount of people giving literally thousands to garage luthiers of unknown brands who began building months ago (many from this forum) is proof that there is a chance. I am not implying that it will be smooth sailing or that it will 100% work.

Starting a full service, modern, guitar manufacturing facility from scratch can easily cost over a million dollars in the first year.

Even if you lease the space and the more expensive tools, and hire local staff. It adds up.

You can't compare this to a one-man operation that works out of thier garage with tools they've acquired over decades.

Sure, they can go the OEM route and contract with an existing builder, but who? If they go with a high end, established shop it's not going to do much to lower the price, and if they go small they might wind up in a situation like RAN of one of then many small builders who fold.

It's also wrong to assume that every sale of a small luthier build is a missed sale for the larger brands. How much overlap is there between someone who is buying a Daemoness, Ruokangas, Eggle, Huber, Skervesen, or Waghorn vs. a Jackson, ESP, Dean or BCR (the brands most copied by RAN)?