Reversed Headstock on Agile Septor concerns

[fusion1]

Since Rondo has the black quilt 827 Septor on sale for $299 I'm tempted to try it mainly for a testbed for pickups. Seems a lot of tension would be on the pointy end of the headstock with an .80 gauge string that far to the end of an 8 string headstock.

Also are there concerns with having enough length on the strings on the bass side being they need to be longer since it is a reversed headstock?

Wish they sold the Septor with the Intrepid headstock, or that the Intrepids were on sale like the Septors.

Comments welcome. Thanks.

 

[Anthonok]

Nothing past the nut affects the tension. Cant commenton the string length.


Edit: mis-understood the post. I don't think it will matter how much tension is on either side of the headstock. It was built that way with that in mind.

 

[shawnperolis]

Get custom strings from La Bella and tell them your scale length and model, and say it has a reverse headstock in the comments. They are super good about sending you the right length strings.

 

[fusion1]

I can't see how it wouldn't be a concern with that amount of pressure on that small section of wood. I know it was built that way but from a physics standpoint you have the weakest area of wood supporting the highest degree of stress. Kind of makes me cringe like seeing the pointy 12 string Carvin headstock almost half the length of the neck itself supporting that much string tension all with a 14 or 16 degree headstock angle and you know it is a matter of time before glue fatigue sets in compromising the structural integrity of the headstock joint.

Imagine if the above Carvin was an 8 string with a headstock like that and the far end was bearing the weight of the .80 gauge string. It would snap that headstock like a twig.

 

[no_dice]

I don't see a problem with the Septor, especially being that the string is continuing in a straight line past the nut, and depending on the tuning you use, the .080 is likely to have even less tension than the other strings. I personally avoid the Septor line, just because I don't like reverse inline headstocks.

 

[RV350ALSCYTHE]

I've had massive strings on reverse Jackson headstocks, it will be fine.

Rondo wouldn't be making them anymore if it was a flaw. There would also be some sort of thread about it if one ever snapped, just like the thousands about Gibson decapitation.

You can find strings long enough for the extended scale length and long in-line headstock from a few brands. Circle K Strings can help you out for sure.

I'm pretty sure D'Addario and Ernie Ball 8 string sets will be long enough if some are using them on longer scale lengths.

I'm positive the Ernie Ball .074 is long enough. I always have to cut a lot of it off on my 27" guitars.

Imagine if the above Carvin was an 8 string with a headstock like that and the far end was bearing the weight of the .80 gauge string. It would snap that headstock like a twig.

Even though that string is thicker, it isn't at a higher tension. All strings produce the same general amount of tension, they don't increase with string thickness. The thickness allows the string to produce a lower note while maintaining a similar tension.
I'm using a balanced 8 string set and the .079 produces just as much stress on the headstock as the .009, when tuned standard F#BEADGBE.

Even if you were tuning the .080 up to increase the tension dramatically, the string would fail long before the headstock would.

The Septor will be strong and be a great pickup test platform for you.

 

[MobiusR]

the ernie ball .074 is definitely long enough. I used it on my 727 interceptor and it reaches just fine!

 

[DancingCloseToU]

I can't see how it wouldn't be a concern with that amount of pressure on that small section of wood. I know it was built that way but from a physics standpoint you have the weakest area of wood supporting the highest degree of stress. Kind of makes me cringe like seeing the pointy 12 string Carvin headstock almost half the length of the neck itself supporting that much string tension all with a 14 or 16 degree headstock angle and you know it is a matter of time before glue fatigue sets in compromising the structural integrity of the headstock joint.

Imagine if the above Carvin was an 8 string with a headstock like that and the far end was bearing the weight of the .80 gauge string. It would snap that headstock like a twig.

The headstock and neck are one piece (well technically 5 pieces of neck wood). I haven't owned a single Agile that had the headstock glued on...

 

[Ben.Last]

The headstock and neck are one piece (well technically 5 pieces of neck wood). I haven't owned a single Agile that had the headstock glued on...

I'd be willing to bet you have.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

An .080" string tuned to F# on a 27" scale is only ~17lbs, which isn't a whole lot. In fact it's a tiny bit less than a .046" tuned to E on a 6-string. Unless it's made of balsa, you'll be nowhere close to the structural limits of the headstock.

I can't see how it wouldn't be a concern with that amount of pressure on that small section of wood. I know it was built that way but from a physics standpoint you have the weakest area of wood supporting the highest degree of stress. Kind of makes me cringe like seeing the pointy 12 string Carvin headstock almost half the length of the neck itself supporting that much string tension all with a 14 or 16 degree headstock angle and you know it is a matter of time before glue fatigue sets in compromising the structural integrity of the headstock joint.

Imagine if the above Carvin was an 8 string with a headstock like that and the far end was bearing the weight of the .80 gauge string. It would snap that headstock like a twig.

You're missing the part where those exact Carvin guitars can still be found today on the used market fairly regularly (double necks were really popular at one point ) with the headstock perfectly intact after many years of use.

You mention physics, but you don't seem to be applying it, unless you mean anecdotal physics. Wood isn't a very hard material, it's softness gives it "give" which means it can bend slightly while still being rigid. That's what makes wood such a great building material, it can bear a great load, even deform slightly yet not break. You also mentioned the angle of the headstock, that too is going to direct the force of the strings in a way that the strings are pulling the tip of the headstock in, it's not pulling up.

I've been a rather staunch critic of Agiles quality (especially the lack of in some cases), but having owned guitars with the same headstock, structural integrity is the least of your concerns. Watch for fretwork and wood defects.

 

[DancingCloseToU]

I'd be willing to bet you have.

I'd win that bet. However, I realize now that all five Agiles that I've owned have all been neck thru.

I can't speak for their bolt on neck guitars.

 

[Hollowway]

Yeah, I'd have to check my Agiles, but I thought I read that all Agiles have scarf joints? Maybe not. I'll have to check mine...

 

[Philligan]

Yeah, I'd have to check my Agiles, but I thought I read that all Agiles have scarf joints? Maybe not. I'll have to check mine...

My Intrepid Pro definitely didn't - it was a five-piece neck-through, and my friend's Septor bolt was a three-piece. I think the new $399 bolt-on models all have scarf joints, though.

 

[Hollowway]

My Intrepid Pro definitely didn't - it was a five-piece neck-through, and my friend's Septor bolt was a three-piece. I think the new $399 bolt-on models all have scarf joints, though.

Not entirely on-topic here, but is it a general rule that neck thrus don't have scarf joints?

 

[Philligan]

Not entirely on-topic here, but is it a general rule that neck thrus don't have scarf joints?

I think so, in general definitely. I think they do it because the laminates add stability, so the scarf joint isn't such a necessity. I know Brian Bowes usually (if not always) does a five-piece neck with a scarf joint, so the headstock is one piece. He makes the headstock part of out the same wood as the body, too, which is bad ass.



I forget who it is, but there's another guy (Guitar Works, or something like that?) who does the same kind of thing.

edit: Bam. Guitar Logistics. I was sort of close.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Guitar-Logistics/141238579239016

 

[MaxOfMetal]

The headstock and neck are one piece (well technically 5 pieces of neck wood). I haven't owned a single Agile that had the headstock glued on...

I'd be willing to bet you have.

There were only two Agiles on this entire forum that had "glued on" headstocks, and none of the dozen or so that I've owned have had that.

It seems to of been a rare occurrence.

Have you seen more, Ben? How many? Pics?

I'd win that bet. However, I realize now that all five Agiles that I've owned have all been neck thru.

I can't speak for their bolt on neck guitars.

The two instances I refered to above were both on neck-thru instruments. I'm pretty sure both were Interceptor Pro models.

Yeah, I'd have to check my Agiles, but I thought I read that all Agiles have scarf joints? Maybe not. I'll have to check mine...

What we're talking about isn't a scarf joint, but a hard straight join of more material at the end of the neck between the nut and the first tuner.

It's as if the neck/headstock blank was too short, or was damaged during construction, and more wood was simply glued on. I'll try to dig for the pictures.

My Intrepid Pro definitely didn't - it was a five-piece neck-through, and my friend's Septor bolt was a three-piece. I think the new $399 bolt-on models all have scarf joints, though.

Scarf joints do appear on the single and three piece neck (referring to the number of joined timbers in the shaft of the neck) Agile models, though there seems to be exceptions here and there based on model, trim level, and time of production.

Not entirely on-topic here, but is it a general rule that neck thrus don't have scarf joints?

Cheap neck-thru instruments tend to not have scarf joints, and typically lack them in general, utilizing a volute usually.

A scarf joint is there to provide strength at what is usually one of the weaker points of a neck, especially when a single, not-always-quatersawn piece is used.

It has nothing to do with the neck joint itself, and more to due with most neck-thrus using multi-laminate necks.

If you're going to be using five or more pieces of hard woods, a volute will do just fine. In fact, nothing is needed if the timbers are properly dried, defect free, and well worked. Just look at all the old school Gibson and Fender instruments that lacked multi-laminate necks, scarf joints, and volutes.

 

[DancingCloseToU]

The two instances I refered to above were both on neck-thru instruments. I'm pretty sure both were Interceptor Pro models.

Sounds like a somewhat rare occurrence? My Interceptor pro 828 (my first 8) had no scarf joint. I don't see a lot of them (compared to the amount they have made), but all the ones I do see are scarf-less.

I always forget about the AL and AS series, too. I'd Imagine they would have a scarf joint being like the Les Paul/Telecaster and all

A buddy of mine is attending The Roberto-Venn School of Luthiery (I know that isn't saying a lot, but he is the most credible second hand source I have available). He says that the scarf joint actually 'gives' less and is typically stronger than a solid piece of wood. A lot of wood glues expand when they dry, making a joint that can often be stronger than the actual wood itself. The wood is typically flipped to cross the grain at the joint making the bond even stronger.

Regardless, I wouldn't be too worried about breaking these headstocks, unless you're unnecessarily hard on you're instruments or you're trying to preserve them for 20+ years.

 

[Ben.Last]

There were only two Agiles on this entire forum that had "glued on" headstocks, and none of the dozen or so that I've owned have had that.

It seems to of been a rare occurrence.

Have you seen more, Ben? How many? Pics?

Nah. I just off-handedly assumed (didn't even bother taking my Septor out of it's case). Good thing no one actually took me up on betting about it.

 

[hairychris]

Sounds like a somewhat rare occurrence? My Interceptor pro 828 (my first 8) had no scarf joint. I don't see a lot of them (compared to the amount they have made), but all the ones I do see are scarf-less.

I always forget about the AL and AS series, too. I'd Imagine they would have a scarf joint being like the Les Paul/Telecaster and all

A buddy of mine is attending The Roberto-Venn School of Luthiery (I know that isn't saying a lot, but he is the most credible second hand source I have available). He says that the scarf joint actually 'gives' less and is typically stronger than a solid piece of wood. A lot of wood glues expand when they dry, making a joint that can often be stronger than the actual wood itself. The wood is typically flipped to cross the grain at the joint making the bond even stronger.

Regardless, I wouldn't be too worried about breaking these headstocks, unless you're unnecessarily hard on you're instruments or you're trying to preserve them for 20+ years.

True. A scarf strengthens the headstock when it breaks backwards to give tension over the nut.

If the headstock has little or no break solid wood is great (think Fender, Carvin, PRS, etc). Headstocks with a greater break angle and scarfed include Jackson, Blackmachine, Bowes as illustrated, etc.

My BM B7 which has a solid neck, scarfed:

I'd only worry if the headstock had a significant break angle and it wasn't scarfed (or at least with a volute) to preserve strength. Gibson, I'm looking at you.

 

[stigmatodiaboli]

i own an agile 827 septor bolt on. Now i've noticed the bolt pattern on the newer cheaper septors is kind of weak looking IMO, and mine is an older one with the better 5 bolt pattern. i haven't had any issues with it as far as stability or play. i use a .80 which is a little floppy but worth it for the size, and it plays great. now i also have a intrepid 828, and the low end is way more tight with that scale. I have really lucked out in my Agile purchases, i haven't had any of the issues or flaws that are out there. well, except i have a small string ferrul for low E string so the ball hangs out