Robbed of My Tone...

[WayneCustom7]

Well I really didn't know where to put this post, in fact I wasn't sure I wanted to post this at all. I don't want to come off as sounding like a baby, but I have nowhere else to turn, and this is eating me up inside. Yesterday we had a practise scheduled, and I was ll pumped up for it. THings started off really good, but then they started in on my tone, and how 'bassy it was''. Some of you may recall that I had posted some tone clips, and how I already compromised my tone by cranking the mids. Well last night the bass player starts in on me, and by the time we were through, I had NO FUCKING BASS dialed in...I sounded like a grilled cheese sandwhich. In fact I couldn't hear myself for the rest of the evening, and things just went downhill from there. The keyboard player kept on soloing, and he was fucking loud, I mean really loud. Now here's the kicker, the bass player plays through a guitar amp. In fact he uses a Zoom effects unit for guitars. That coupled with the fact that these guys just don't understand the low B string is really fucking things up...or is it just me. I really need some input.
Also, not to whine, but I am the one who writes all the material, records ideas and gets things going at the practise. I record our sessions, post the links and even started a website. So last night, when I was obviously feeling down, there session went to shits, no guidance and it sounded like CRAP!

 

[b3n]

Man that sucks.

Have you thought of getting in an independent (ie not in the band) sound engineer type person to get things sounding right...? I mean...it doesn't have to be a professional, just someone with some common sense.

Then make everyone stick to those settings. I don't know really as I haven't had this problem but it's an idea anyway.

EDIT: If that doesn't work, just flex at the bass player until he gives in, or dies

 

[metalfiend666]

Well I really didn't know where to put this post, in fact I wasn't sure I wanted to post this at all. I don't want to come off as sounding like a baby, but I have nowhere else to turn, and this is eating me up inside. Yesterday we had a practise scheduled, and I was ll pumped up for it. THings started off really good, but then they started in on my tone, and how 'bassy it was''. Some of you may recall that I had posted some tone clips, and how I already compromised my tone by cranking the mids. Well last night the bass player starts in on me, and by the time we were through, I had NO FUCKING BASS dialed in...I sounded like a grilled cheese sandwhich. In fact I couldn't hear myself for the rest of the evening, and things just went downhill from there. The keyboard player kept on soloing, and he was fucking loud, I mean really loud. Now here's the kicker, the bass player plays through a guitar amp. In fact he uses a Zoom effects unit for guitars. That coupled with the fact that these guys just don't understand the low B string is really fucking things up...or is it just me. I really need some input.
Also, not to whine, but I am the one who writes all the material, records ideas and gets things going at the practise. I record our sessions, post the links and even started a website. So last night, when I was obviously feeling down, there session went to shits, no guidance and it sounded like CRAP!

Stand up for yourself! Point out that YOU do most of the work and they obviously have NO understanding of sound. I mean, a bassist playing through guitar gear? If they had any clue about sound they'd realise how crappy your sound now is. Go back to your old sound, and if they don't like it tough!

 

[Digital Black]

Getting good guitar sound in a band situation is about working with the whole band.. It's tough to do. You'll just have to work with them one on one..

 

[jacksonplayer]

The bassist is playing through a guitar rig and he's trying to adjust YOUR setup???? That guy's got issues...

Bass is going to sound like crap through a guitar amp in any event, but I can't imagine putting a 5-string (which I assume he's using) through guitar electronics. Tell him he needs to get a real bass rig before complaining about your sound.

It's true that a lot of guitarists dial up too much bass EQ in a band setting and that this can be a real problem for 7-stringers, but that doesn't mean that your guitar should sound like a dentist's drill, either.

I second the idea of getting an objective pair of ears involved. That might give you the best sound and also take away a lot of the emotional involvement.

 

[WayneCustom7]

OK first up, and I wanted to ask about this ages ago, but the bass player is using a 4 string ONLY. I wanted to ask if, in a band with a seven string guitar, is it essential for the bass player to play a 5 string...
Secondly, I already adjusted my tone and the week before, we sounded awesome. If you click on my links (Auratoned's Website or Tunes), you'll hear how we sound together (without the keys)...fuck I think we sound awesome in the mix, especially with a cheap mic, and only one mic at that. Have a listen, I don't think I'm too bassy...especially to justify removing all of my fucking bass tone.
Anyway thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming, I really appreciate the help.

 

[metalfiend666]

If he's playing a countermelody it's not essential that the bassist uses a 5 string. It sure sounds better if they do though!

 

[Naren]

OK first up, and I wanted to ask about this ages ago, but the bass player is using a 4 string ONLY. I wanted to ask if, in a band with a seven string guitar, is it essential for the bass player to play a 5 string...

It is not essential, but I think it sounds a lot better. There are a lot of 5 string bass players who play over a 6-string guitar and it sounds fine. A 4-string guitar can sound fine over a 7-string guitar, but I think a 5-string would sound much better.

Personally I think, from your recordings, your guitar is "slightly" too bassy (a common problem with a lot of guitarists playing in a band setting), but to turn it into "grilled cheese" is too much.

Besides, if he's playing through a guitar amp, he shouldn't be telling you what to do with your guitar.

Good luck with the situation.

 

[WayneCustom7]

It is not essential, but I think it sounds a lot better. There are a lot of 5 string bass players who play over a 6-string guitar and it sounds fine. A 4-string guitar can sound fine over a 7-string guitar, but I think a 5-string would sound much better.

Personally I think, from your recordings, your guitar is "slightly" too bassy (a common problem with a lot of guitarists playing in a band setting), but to turn it into "grilled cheese" is too much.

Besides, if he's playing through a guitar amp, he shouldn't be telling you what to do with your guitar.

Good luck with the situation.

Well that sounds like a good observation, and I agree, a tweak here, thin out the tone a bit, sounds good...but after we cut out all my bass, I commented on how thin, tinny and lack luster my tone was, (I think I said weak), well then the bassist came back and said..."Don't worry it will sound heavier with me playing". Well it didn't...it sounded like crap...and to think I purchased a brand new 4x12 cab, a rack and other shit for this project. Thankfully I didn't go and purchase that EBMM JP7 w/ piezo, I almost did, but I pulled out at the last second. Fuck I'm depressed.

 

[SHREDDER]

I hear your pain. Band dynamics can be a real rough situation at times, god knows that alot of killer bands have died because of the inability to communicate and respect each others input and ideas.

My suggestion is to sit down and voice your issues (in a diplomatic way mind-you) If the guys your playing with are serious about the music and the success of the "band", then they will listen to you objectivly, and with open minds and you should be able to push past this.

If this don't work, then find other people to play with. There out there, you just may need to place some classifieds, or hunt down some people.

In any case I hope it all works for the better for you. And if your ever in Wisconsin, give me a buzz, I'd be more than happy to tear it up with ya!

 

[nitelightboy]

First thing you should do is round house kick the bass player in the face and then shove his bass where the sun don't shine. He basically has no right to tell you about your tone when he doesn't even have a semi-proper rig.

Now I understand you have to listen and compromise in a band setting, but they shouldn't dictate YOUR TONE, just help you to slightly tweak to really compliment everyone else's. That's basically up to you. An objective set of ears is a great idea, but grab a few of em to get the most from outside opinions.

Also....this may seem kinda dorky, but it's always worked well for me...keep a log book of your settings. I have a book for each of my amps and effects setups that I use to keep track of every tone that I use and any cool sounds that I find. That way, when I need something <insert descriptive here> I can find it by flipping through a few pages. Take a few minutes and transfer the front end of your amp into something like Word or even the free little paint application thingie and make em look as close to your gear as possible. This way you can have a few setting for the band based on the environment, overall volume and personal prefereance

 

[WayneCustom7]

I hear your pain. Band dynamics can be a real rough situation at times, god knows that alot of killer bands have died because of the inability to communicate and respect each others input and ideas.

My suggestion is to sit down and voice your issues (in a diplomatic way mind-you) If the guys your playing with are serious about the music and the success of the "band", then they will listen to you objectivly, and with open minds and you should be able to push past this.

If this don't work, then find other people to play with. There out there, you just may need to place some classifieds, or hunt down some people.

In any case I hope it all works for the better for you. And if your ever in Wisconsin, give me a buzz, I'd be more than happy to tear it up with ya!

Thanks that's the best offer I've gotten, how's the employment rate up there anyway?

nitelightboy First thing you should do is round house kick the bass player in the face and then shove his bass where the sun don't shine. He basically has no right to tell you about your tone when he doesn't even have a semi-proper rig.

Now I understand you have to listen and compromise in a band setting, but they shouldn't dictate YOUR TONE, just help you to slightly tweak to really compliment everyone else's. That's basically up to you. An objective set of ears is a great idea, but grab a few of em to get the most from outside opinions.

Also....this may seem kinda dorky, but it's always worked well for me...keep a log book of your settings. I have a book for each of my amps and effects setups that I use to keep track of every tone that I use and any cool sounds that I find. That way, when I need something <insert descriptive here> I can find it by flipping through a few pages. Take a few minutes and transfer the front end of your amp into something like Word or even the free little paint application thingie and make em look as close to your gear as possible. This way you can have a few setting for the band based on the environment, overall volume and personal prefereance

Again thanks guys, some really good advice. I just have to wonder why last week things were cool, then all of a sudden they decide to become sound engineers

 

[Drew]

Also, not to whine, but I am the one who writes all the material, records ideas and gets things going at the practise. I record our sessions, post the links and even started a website. So last night, when I was obviously feeling down, there session went to shits, no guidance and it sounded like CRAP!

Congratulations, you just discovered the other side of being in a band.

Don't look at as "compromising my tone," to begin with. For one, keep in mind that this is your first band - you're probably playing with too much bass and treble and too little bass anyway, and it'll definitely take you a little while to get a sense for what a good "live" tone should sound like, with a band. Now, repeat after me - it's not "Compromising your tone," it's "finding a band tone that works."

So, from that perspective... You don't want overpowering bass because that really will sound like shit, but you DO want some bass. What's your surrently set at? I generally leave mine around 4 or so on my Nomad, which is fairly bass heavy - it's fine, but with a band I might need to go a little lower, actually.

From there, how's the bass player's tone? What's his upper mid and treble frequency like? Part of the problem, if you guys sound muddy, could ver well be the his frequencies are clashing with yours, too. Does he use compression? If not, tell him to look into that (my biggest problem I ever had with a bassist was one who wouldn't use his amp's BUILT-IN COMPRESSION because it wasn't "vintage," so when he'd be playing we could barely hear him until he dug in for a fill, at which point suddenly the mix was all bass. I mean, amplification has made a few advances in the last 50 years...) The two of you should sit down and try to find a bass/guitar tone that's complimentary.

Also, they keys are a very full-frequency instrument - they're probably taking up a lot of space too. Some EQ'ing at the board to keep the low end fromg etting tubby is probably a good idea, too.

Now, back to your rig - are you using seperate patches for rhythm and lead? If not, you probably should- this'll take care of getting your solos to cut better without being overpowering the rest of the time, just program your lead patch a little louder and with more of a spike in the upper mids. Also, dig around the net a little - I saw a great video of Petrucci demoing his rig, and he dialed up his "crunch" rhythm tone at one point - it was surprisingly anemic. Put all of DT behind him, though, and he sounds like the wrath of god. Likewise, listen to his tone on the G3 recordings - it's VERY focused compared to Satch and Vai - you can tell he plays with a keyboardist a lot. They're both expansive and fairly "full-frequency," whereas his is much more focused in the midrange. And it still sounds ungodly.

Oh, and get a rhythm guitarist in the band, too. That way, you can all gang up on him, and take some pressure off yourself.

 

[WayneCustom7]

You know, listenning to the tunes we posted at SoundClick.com, I feel my tone isn't really all that bassy. The sound there is much better than on the website, so feel free to give it a listen to. I am not trying to promote our music, I know where I am in life, I just want to see what the majority of people think. I think the one song, First of Many has a brighter tone than Where's Mike, which I agree may need a bit of tweaking, but to fucking rob it completly of bass tone...ARRRGGGHHH!

Is it Really Too Bassy?

 

[WayneCustom7]

Congratulations, you just discovered the other side of being in a band.

Don't look at as "compromising my tone," to begin with. For one, keep in mind that this is your first band - you're probably playing with too much bass and treble and too little bass anyway, and it'll definitely take you a little while to get a sense for what a good "live" tone should sound like, with a band. Now, repeat after me - it's not "Compromising your tone," it's "finding a band tone that works."

So, from that perspective... You don't want overpowering bass because that really will sound like shit, but you DO want some bass. What's your surrently set at? I generally leave mine around 4 or so on my Nomad, which is fairly bass heavy - it's fine, but with a band I might need to go a little lower, actually.

From there, how's the bass player's tone? What's his upper mid and treble frequency like? Part of the problem, if you guys sound muddy, could ver well be the his frequencies are clashing with yours, too. Does he use compression? If not, tell him to look into that (my biggest problem I ever had with a bassist was one who wouldn't use his amp's BUILT-IN COMPRESSION because it wasn't "vintage," so when he'd be playing we could barely hear him until he dug in for a fill, at which point suddenly the mix was all bass. I mean, amplification has made a few advances in the last 50 years...) The two of you should sit down and try to find a bass/guitar tone that's complimentary.

Also, they keys are a very full-frequency instrument - they're probably taking up a lot of space too. Some EQ'ing at the board to keep the low end fromg etting tubby is probably a good idea, too.

Now, back to your rig - are you using seperate patches for rhythm and lead? If not, you probably should- this'll take care of getting your solos to cut better without being overpowering the rest of the time, just program your lead patch a little louder and with more of a spike in the upper mids. Also, dig around the net a little - I saw a great video of Petrucci demoing his rig, and he dialed up his "crunch" rhythm tone at one point - it was surprisingly anemic. Put all of DT behind him, though, and he sounds like the wrath of god. Likewise, listen to his tone on the G3 recordings - it's VERY focused compared to Satch and Vai - you can tell he plays with a keyboardist a lot. They're both expansive and fairly "full-frequency," whereas his is much more focused in the midrange. And it still sounds ungodly.

Oh, and get a rhythm guitarist in the band, too. That way, you can all gang up on him, and take some pressure off yourself.

Ah the wiseman speaks...makes sense, and of course you are right...but I still feel in the end I was left sounding like, as someone put it earlier so well, a dentist's drill.

 

[Drew]

Yeah, it's a fine line, and you need to balance it so all the instruments sound good, not one or two sound good at the expense of another.

I'm guessing if you get your bass player through a proper bass rig, however, you'll probably have a LOT less frequency clash between the two of you...

(and re-reading, sorry if it sounded like I was coming down on you for not agreeing with your band - I'm not, I think they're probably sculpting your tone too much. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, giving you the other prospective so you can weigh the two against each other, get a clearer look at the big picture... and then come at 'em with much better arguments for why you need to be louder, bassier, and get all the chicks at the aftershow parties. )

Zen moment of the day - the most insidious way to get someone to do something you want is to convince them that you're agreeing with them, not that they're agreeing with you. *bows*

 

[Shawn]

Wayne, I thought your tone wasn't all that bad, when I heard those clips. Sorry to hear the sad news. I know when I first plugged my 7620 directly into my DSL 100, I get that same problem sometimes, and I messed with it over and over to finally get it right. I hope you'll be able to mess with it more and more to your liking though.....

 

[Vince]

the bass player plays through a guitar amp. In fact he uses a Zoom effects unit for guitars.

oh, holy hell. Until this part of the equation rectifies, you're never going to sound good as a band. The bassist needs a bass rig.

Along with that, most guitar sounds will sound fine in a band if the other instruments sound good. My advice is to keep the bass frequencies in check, and you should be okay for your sound. Your bass-end of your sound should have a peak at about 250 Hz, and your bassist should have a peak at about 80 Hz - 120 Hz. If you manage that, you'll be doing great. Guitar amps usually only produce overtones, not actual notes at the sub 100 Hz level, so if he's using a guitar amp and guitar speakers (and let's not even go there on the ZOOM garbage ) he's not getting a bassist's sound at all.

Two ideas for him: AMPEG SVT 3, or a MESA BASS 400.
Yeah, they're pricy, but that's because they're that good Might be a good idea for him to invest in a 4x10 and a 15 as well. That's the ideal combo for most bassists. My bassist is a 4x10 guy, and I'm pushing hard for him to add a 15 to his rig

Also, for the keyboardist... keyboardists do not "solo". Keyboards are background instruments. Sometimes, they're allowed to have 'melody lines', but we never call them 'solos'. Keyboardists who 'solo' eventually think they have to be ungodly loud all the time. Kick 'em to the curb and let them know who's boss.

In all seriousness, the band is all about making music that fits well together. You're all parts that are not as great as the whole you could possibly create together. If you keep that mindset and humility when dealing with each other, there should be nothing you can't accomplish together, and that goes for frequency fighting like you're dealing with now.

I hope this was more info than rambling. Just my $.02.

 

[jacksonplayer]

Regarding the issue of 5-string bass: my opinion is that any band with a 7-string guitarist should also have a 5 (or 6) string bassist. That's the only way that the bass and guitar can perform unison parts, which is pretty important in heavy music.

Also, having a 5-string bassist helps keep up the sonic distinction between guitar and bass. Remember that when you play a low B note on your guitar you are only a few steps higher than the lowest note on a 4-string bass. Obviously, if you spend a lot of time on the low-B string, you really will be intruding on the 4-string bassist's territory regardless of how your setup is equalized. Seriously, if the bassist refuses to play a 5-string or restring his bass to B E A D, you might consider going to a 6-string guitar if you want to continue playing with this bunch of guys. That would probably help open up the sound right there, as blasphemous as such advice might seem on this board.

As to the keyboardist, you've obviously got a budding Jens Johannsen on your hands, so why not feature him prominently--maybe put him out front on the stage in a gleaming cape or a mad scientist's outfit? After all, chicks really dig a guy who spent his childhood years practicing piano...

 

[eaeolian]

Also, for the keyboardist... keyboardists do not "solo". Keyboards are background instruments. Sometimes, they're allowed to have 'melody lines', but we never call them 'solos'. Keyboardists who 'solo' eventually think they have to be ungodly loud all the time. Kick 'em to the curb and let them know who's boss.

What are these "keyboards" you speak of, and why are they allowed in the room with guitars in the first place?

(back on topic now...)

Listening to the clips, you're a tad bassy, and you could use a slight frequency shift upwards in the spectrum, and he's got too much high end in his bass, and no fundamentals - it sounds like a Rick through a guitar amp. If he had a split system and a crossover to give him some fundamentals, well...

What are you using for an amp at this point?