Second Class Citizens: The Gay Rights Documentary

[tacotiklah]

I guess in the future we'll have added so many letters to the LGBTQ community acronym we'll have to just start calling them people.

Epic post is epic!

+rep your way for this!
To those that ask man or woman, I say human. That should be enough. We're all people and as such are deserving of the respect befitting a human being until our actions and deeds alone warrant the negation and termination of said respect. Dress/look how you want, and be intimate with any consenting adult that you want. It is not mine, or other person's place to tell you otherwise. Do I care for the emo style? Not really, but I won't tell an emo person to look and act like anything else. Why? Because it isn't my place to, and I mildly respect them for not giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks and looking and acting the way that they want to.

Granted GID (google it) is something you're born with as opposed to emo, which is a lifestyle choice, but much of the same principle holds.

Slightly off-topic, but I've even wondered if some of the musical culture could be something you're inherently born with too. I'd love to see some scientific research on this as I find studies of things like this fascinating.

 

[Necris]

It does sound like a strange viewpoint to take, but it's not as if anybody who is in a marginalized category like a gay man or lesbian woman is automatically some kind of beacon of acceptance and political awareness. Not to put words in your mouth, just a point to consider.

Oh, of course. I'm not at all surprised by it and am well aware of the fact that every human being has the capacity to discriminate, but I can still be uncomfortable with it.

 

[Hemi-Powered Drone]

I've always found the labels heterosexual, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, etc. to be really odd and I almost think we shouldn't be using them, but on the other hand I don't want to rob someone of an identity. I guess in the future we'll have added so many letters to the LGBTQ community acronym we'll have to just start calling them people.

I believe the current fully expanded acronym is QUILTBAG (Don't ask me what it stands for).

 

[Necris]

I believe the current fully expanded acronym is QUILTBAG (Don't ask me what it stands for).

Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Uncertain
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

 

[Explorer]

Getting a boner in a shower room makes you gay. In reality those boners probably happen because face the fucking truth, dicks are sexual cues, and also you're standing there thinking about not getting a boner. You know how that always works out.

...I'm a firm believer that "100% straight, no exceptions" people (especially guys) do not exist, and I will keep driving that point into the ground until people realize that Anderson Cooper is fucking gorgeous.

You bring up some interesting assertions, but I'm not sure they're correct.

I have never had to think, "Don't get a boner!" in the locker room or shower. Male nudity isn't a sexual cue for me. To give a parallel example, young children aren't a sexual cue for most adults, and most adult men don't need to think about not getting a boner when dealing with a baby or a young child having its diaper changed.

I also like that, although one of the points made is that some can't really believe someone can be bisexual, you've asserted that someone can't be attracted only to one sex. Lesbians and gays are just fooling themselves by that logic.

Don't feel bad that you hadn't thought that throguh, though. Just be a little more understanding when lesbians don't believe that someone can be trans.

----

Funny story: A good friend of mine who is a lesbian kept arguing with me that I wasn't in touch with the fact that people are naturally bisexual, and kept insisting that I should get with a guy that she knew. I agreed that I'd be up for the experiment... if she would first get with a guy I knew. She was completely revolted by the idea of sex with a guy, but she would never cop to it until I finally made it a quid pro quo situation.

Personally, I don't get people who tell others that they don't really have their declared sexual preferences, whether it's someone bi telling a straight or gay that they're lying, or a clergyman telling gays and lesbians that they are really straight. Ignorance abounds in this world, and the most I can do is not contribute to it.

That's my choice, but any one of us is free to choose to do so.

 

[Waelstrum]

While I agree with the above post almost entirely, I think that what he meant by everyone being a little bit bi is that the little bit can be so small as to be negligible. It's sort of like how almost everyone can score a little bit along autism spectrum. I think that he meant that to be 100% straight, you not only must have never been attracted to your gender, but you must also have never considered that you might find even one example of an attractive person of your gender (because some may accuse* homosexuality of anyone who considers the possibility, as mentioned in his post).


*Not the right word for it, but 'twas all I could think of.

 

[Explorer]

Well, I've never considered a male in a sexual way, and have never given a thought as to whether I might someday find one I'd find attractive.

Anyway, having heard idiots like Pat Robertson seek to redefine sexual orientation as a "choice" rather than what someone automatically feels, I think that the idea of trying to find some bi/homosexual component in someone who is straight is hilarious but misguided.

BTW, a lot of women I've known who have been involved in sex work (sad but true, and I don't frequent where such things happen) always start to assert that everyone is a prostitute in their own way. I don't agree, but they keep trying to redefine things to make their case, and it always comes across as BS.

This feels a lot like that.

 

[Waelstrum]

I wasn't really agreeing with his post, I was just trying to see his point of view and considering some of the ideas as perhaps more valid than they first seem.

EDIT: Or perhaps Groph was talking about people in isolation with their own gender, (usually men) such as in prison or at sea. His point is that as a last resort, the instinct is to find sexual relief with company as opposed to one's self, even in the absence of one's preferred gender.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

I'm not sure I'm really on board with the "we're all at least a little bisexual" idea, either. I can certainly admit when another man is attractive, but I've never been sexually attracted to another man at all. I can also see a child and think "what a beautiful little girl" or "what a handsome little boy," but I don't consider myself to be "at least a little paedo" because of it.

If being comfortable admitting when another man is attractive, regardless of not being attracted to him, makes me a little bit bi, then by that definition I suppose I am.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

First..I do believe there are many gray areas in sexuality..porn's a great example of this for most men. Men do care what the guy looks like in porn movies..and about the size of his dick. Sexual imagery is arousing be it a man or woman for lots of people, even if on some small scale. As a gay man I never had the hardon situation in the shower, but it doesn't make me not understand groph's point which is extremely valid. Nudity has a sexual aspect, naked men draws a parallel to sexuality, and some men get hardons due to it..makes perfect sense.

Second..I don't think women involved in sex work is sad..if they make that choice in clear mind then so be it. In Nevada prostitution is legal and I think it should be and taken as a valid job and not something women do that should be pitied.

I don't know how the pedo thing came along..but that's something entirely different. I don't believe anyone's 100% anything. Some are definitely stronger towards one of the spectrum or another..but different situations lead to different results. I've seen lots of "very gay" men become attracted to a woman for whatever reason and lots of "very straight" men become attracted to another man for whatever reason

 

[Lady Gaga]

By the way, we're onto quiltbagpipe now: QUILTBAGPIPE - Yada Wiki

 

[tacotiklah]

By the way, we're onto quiltbagpipe now: QUILTBAGPIPE - Yada Wiki

Lolwut?
So according to that I'm T and both Ps? Interesting.....


And for those that didn't know...
Groph makes a good case for many people being bi to some degree. This is based upon the Kinsey Scale:
Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember reading up on this and out of 100 or so test subjects, Dr. Kinsey found that only 30% of his test subjects were truly exclusively straight, or exclusively gay. It makes a pretty good case for bisexuality being more common that people would like to admit. I will say that the test was pretty flawed since it dealt exclusively with the sexual side of things and didn't take into account things like relationships and the emotional side of things.

That said, I'm still of the mind there are far more bisexuals out there than we can see. Erasure as well as people still being in the closet (understandably so given the hatred for it by society) have skewed the numbers a fair bit...

 

[flint757]

Lolwut?
So according to that I'm T and both Ps? Interesting.....


And for those that didn't know...
Groph makes a good case for many people being bi to some degree. This is based upon the Kinsey Scale:
Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember reading up on this and out of 100 or so test subjects, Dr. Kinsey found that only 30% of his test subjects were truly exclusively straight, or exclusively gay. It makes a pretty good case for bisexuality being more common that people would like to admit. I will say that the test was pretty flawed since it dealt exclusively with the sexual side of things and didn't take into account things like relationships and the emotional side of things.

That said, I'm still of the mind there are far more bisexuals out there than we can see. Erasure as well as people still being in the closet (understandably so given the hatred for it by society) have skewed the numbers a fair bit...

If you look at it from a historical context bisexuality has always been pretty common.

 

[Konfyouzd]

If you look at it from a historical context bisexuality has always been pretty common.

Humans have been around for far too long for most things we perceive in our everyday life to be new or unique. What's sad is we still haven't found ways of coping with who we are.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Humans have been around for far too long for most things we perceive in our everyday life to be new or unique. What's sad is we still haven't found ways of coping with who we are.

This. The more people understood about themselves, the more they could relate to others they see as different..and less trouble we would have

 

[Waelstrum]

I'm pretty sure the QUITLTBAGPIPE acronym is taking the piss, considering the 'E' is for everyone. It just looks like they're trying to make a silly word.

 

[Explorer]

Groph makes a good case for many people being bi to some degree.

...I remember reading up on this and out of 100 or so test subjects, Dr. Kinsey found that only 30% of his test subjects were truly exclusively straight, or exclusively gay. It makes a pretty good case for bisexuality being more common that people would like to admit.

But it wasn't Groph's point that many people are bi. He said that everyone was bi.

I'm a firm believer that "100% straight, no exceptions" people (especially guys) do not exist.

The study that you posted disagrees with Groph's point, as it found that 30% of the test subjects were straight, which is not the 0% argued by Groph.

And again, I have to laugh that in a thread where (prior to the derail and subsequent back-to-topic jump) the group being discussed is always being told that their natural proclivities are a problem, now someone is arguing that the other group doesn't know anything about its own sexual preferences. That echoes so many evangelical "homosexuality doesn't really exist, it's a choice" that it's both hilarious and extremely scary.

Ah, well. I just have alarm bells go off whenever someone claims to know what another person feels, even better than that person.

 

[groph]

You bring up some interesting assertions, but I'm not sure they're correct.

I have never had to think, "Don't get a boner!" in the locker room or shower. Male nudity isn't a sexual cue for me. To give a parallel example, young children aren't a sexual cue for most adults, and most adult men don't need to think about not getting a boner when dealing with a baby or a young child having its diaper changed.

I also like that, although one of the points made is that some can't really believe someone can be bisexual, you've asserted that someone can't be attracted only to one sex. Lesbians and gays are just fooling themselves by that logic.

Don't feel bad that you hadn't thought that throguh, though. Just be a little more understanding when lesbians don't believe that someone can be trans.

..I don't feel bad, and I have thought it through, a lot. I wasn't talking about lesbians, I was talking about some threads of thought in radical feminism (the whole feminism shebang is pretty multifaceted so I can't really speak on behalf of everybody who subscribes to it nor have I really read volumes of the stuff yet either though I am into this stuff). They attack the idea of a "naturally" internalized gender identity, they tend to think that gender is entirely learned through (a patriarchal) society.

Maybe I was a bit clumsy and implied that I said that someone can't only be attracted to one sex but I was talking about the rigidity in sexual/gender roles IE if a man expresses the slightest bit of attraction towards another man he's very easily labelled as "gay" even if he identifies otherwise. I'm pretty sure in the spectrum of human sexuality there are people who are not attracted AT ALL to people with the same body parts as them, but they're probably pretty rare and how much of that stuff is macho posturing? Lots of guys will assert their 100% heterosexual orientation and I'd wager a decent bet that a good proportion of them are bullshitting you. Personally, I do find lots of guys out there attractive but I don't experience any romantic attraction to them and I'm pretty damn sure that if it ever came down to it, I wouldn't actually have sex with them and if I think a guy is good looking, I can't not be friends with him for fear of accidentally coming on to him or anything. What works occasionally in fantasy is not necessarily what works in real life.

About the shower boners business, no, if you're comfortable around the people nudity isn't always a sexual cue, the same thing goes for nude beaches and physical examinations. The context matters for sure. It's just a boner-conducive mindset if you're constantly thinking about getting hard and in reality, I'm sure the "boner in the shower" is more of a fear than a reality, I doubt it actually happens much. Why guys are so terrified about it is what's of interest, some are just really insecure and sometimes that insecurity can backfire on you. I'm sure in your youth you've pitched many a tent in class and your mental efforts to become flaccid only made matters worse. Of course one also has to consider that erection is a physiological response that is more or less separated from higher brain functioning, you can't just "will" a boner in and out of existence. I've never even used a changing room in any school before, partially out of my own insecurities and partially because the popular "jock" guys really appeared to be a bunch who would put you down because of the way you looked, I'd be the sort of fat kind of nerdy kid they'd whip in the ass with a towel and make comments on my junk. That was the fear. Nowadays I'd be far less averse to using a public changing room, I guess these things change with maturity.

EDIT: Yeah I didn't mean that everybody was bisexual to the point of willfully engaging in sex with either sex, I just really question the 100% heterosexual mentality, to put it in a nutshell. I've never shagged a man and I don't want to, but there's no way I'm 100% straight. I'm looking at "100% straightness" as a sort of managed presentation of one's self in order to preserve and protect a status, especially in the case of guys.