Sinead O'Connor, now a Muslim, upsets Muslims by hating white people...

[PunkBillCarson]

I'm very disappointed that no one really nailed their commentary on this with a good "Nothing Compares 2 You" pun.

We left that kind of genius to you. Anything you come up with would likely be pretty good. Hell, I'm still laughing over that whole "my wife's a pencil sharpener line."

 

[narad]

We left that kind of genius to you. Anything you come up with would likely be pretty good. Hell, I'm still laughing over that whole "my wife's a pencil sharpener line."

Ah, sorry man - well's run dry

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Ah, sorry man - well's run dry

Goddamn it, I was counting on you. ...

 

[Demiurge]

I'm not really interested in going there on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?

 

[vilk]

I'm not really interested in going there on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?

No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.

 

[Demiurge]

^Don't get me wrong, I think that the two narratives are often preposterous, too, which is why I found the apparent intersection of the two- in their most-unfavorable forms- to be odd.

 

[Drew]

No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.

I don't want to pull this further off topic, but I think this is an evolving conversation we'll be having for some time. I think cultural appropriation in the "white girl sorority chick wearing an "indian headdress" to Coachella because it's, like, SO spiritual, man..." sense is pretty clearly offensive in ways that, say, the same woman five years later spending two years traveling in mexico and studying traditional Mexican cooking techniques and recipes and then coming back to the states and opening a Mexican fusion restaurant, taking those lessons and recipes she learned and applying the techniques and ingredients in new ways and with new ingredients.

I think there's a pretty clear demarcation there, and that cultural mingling is potentially a good thing if it's done with knowledge and respect, rather than ignorance. But, I would hardly go so far as to argue that "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous."

 

[vilk]

I don't want to pull this further off topic, but I think this is an evolving conversation we'll be having for some time. I think cultural appropriation in the "white girl sorority chick wearing an "indian headdress" to Coachella because it's, like, SO spiritual, man..." sense is pretty clearly offensive in ways that, say, the same woman five years later spending two years traveling in mexico and studying traditional Mexican cooking techniques and recipes and then coming back to the states and opening a Mexican fusion restaurant, taking those lessons and recipes she learned and applying the techniques and ingredients in new ways and with new ingredients.

I think there's a pretty clear demarcation there, and that cultural mingling is potentially a good thing if it's done with knowledge and respect, rather than ignorance. But, I would hardly go so far as to argue that "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous."

What's the metric here? How do you measure appreciation? How do you measure aesthetic depth? What about the fact that some people are just not very deep as an inherent character trait? Should they be barred from foreign culture?

You can draw your line where you want to, but at the very least you must admit that it's totally arbitrary and relative to you as an individual... kinda seems to me like it could be dismissed as "food is ok because I like to eat it, but headdress are not because I don't care about fashion". How does one compare the experience of wearing clothes with the experience of eating food?

 

[Drew]

What's the metric here? How do you measure appreciation? How do you measure aesthetic depth? What about the fact that some people are just not very deep as an inherent character trait? Should they be barred from foreign culture?

You can draw your line where you want to, but at the very least you must admit that it's totally arbitrary and relative to you as an individual... kinda seems to me like it could be dismissed as "food is ok because I like to eat it, but headdress are not because I don't care about fashion". How does one compare the experience of wearing clothes with the experience of eating food?

I mean, with all due respect, you're looking at this the wrong way.

IS there a difference between those two scenarios? I think the answer is pretty self-obviously yes. As you approach some hypothetical midpoint, does that become more blurry? Sure... Life is full of grey areas. But if you dial it back a bit and take the broader view, there are pretty clearly situations where "cultural appropriation" IS a thing, is kind of troubling, and could fairly be depicted as some sort of objectification of a culture. The fact that the line between a legitimate and deep appreciation, and a superficial and objectifying one, can get blurry as you move towards the middle doesn't disprove the extremes exist.

I mean, tl;dr - you can find two VERY similar shades of grey. That doesn't disprove the existence of black and white.

 

[vilk]

I mean, with all due respect, you're looking at this the wrong way.

IS there a difference between those two scenarios? I think the answer is pretty self-obviously yes. As you approach some hypothetical midpoint, does that become more blurry? Sure... Life is full of grey areas. But if you dial it back a bit and take the broader view, there are pretty clearly situations where "cultural appropriation" IS a thing, is kind of troubling, and could fairly be depicted as some sort of objectification of a culture. The fact that the line between a legitimate and deep appreciation, and a superficial and objectifying one, can get blurry as you move towards the middle doesn't disprove the extremes exist.

I mean, tl;dr - you can find two VERY similar shades of grey. That doesn't disprove the existence of black and white.

I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.

It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.

 

[Drew]

I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.

It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.

So, are you saying you see NO distinction between those two scenarios I outlined?

 

[vilk]

So, are you saying you see NO distinction between those two scenarios I outlined?

I'm saying that any distinction is arbitrary and moot.

 

[Drew]

I'm saying that any distinction is arbitrary and moot.

So, you DO see a distinction?

 

[vilk]

So, you DO see a distinction?

You mean that headresses are generally inedible? Yeah, I realized.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

@vilk can you just engage in @Drew's argument so we can move on to more important things like taco recipes.

 

[Drew]

@vilk can you just engage in @Drew's argument so we can move on to more important things like taco recipes.

No shit, right?

Idunno, man. I think in general, arguing "these two things are two points on a spectrum that are very close together, and they're tough to tell apart, so therefore everything on the spectrum is basically the same" isn't an intellectually honest argument, and I've never actually heard anyone argue that cultural appropriation isn't an actual issue before, at least outside Alex Jones and Fox talking heads. I can't agree with you here.

And, if anyone DOES have any good taco recipies, I'm all ears - I'd particularly be up for a couple braised pork recipes. I've done a couple carnitas recipes, but in general I haven't really been floored - maybe this is the Italian in me but I'd like something a little more flavored and stewed.

Hell, really good Mexican cookbook recommendations would be appreciated too.

 

[vilk]

No, I see no distinction between the integrity of the cultural experience of eating a cultural food as compared with wearing a cultural clothing item. In the example Drew provided, the chef has studied the culture before cooking while the concert goer is assumed not to have... But I somehow doubt anyone would call it cultural appropriation for someone who is ignorant of Mexican culture to eat a taco. To me it seems like a personal bias that many people probably have with regards to fashion as compared with cuisine.

But even so, it's all besides my main point, which is that it's silly to pretend that any aspect of any culture must "belong" to only certain people and only be used for traditional ways, obviously excluding cases of racism and speading hate.

 

[Drew]

No, I see no distinction between the integrity of the cultural experience of eating a cultural food as compared with wearing a cultural clothing item. In the example Drew provided, the chef has studied the culture before cooking while the concert goer is assumed not to have... But I somehow doubt anyone would call it cultural appropriation for someone who is ignorant of Mexican culture to eat a taco. To me it seems like a personal bias that many people probably have with regards to fashion as compared with cuisine.

With all due respect, that's NOT the distinction I made - taking the time to immerse yourself in, study, and understand a culture before adopting elements of it vs. "oooh! pretty!" - but suit yourself.

 

[vilk]

With all due respect, that's NOT the distinction I made - taking the time to immerse yourself in, study, and understand a culture before adopting elements of it vs. "oooh! pretty!" - but suit yourself.

Replace "oooh! pretty!" with "oooh! tasty!" or "oooh! jammin!" or "oooh! fun!"

Have you ever enjoyed Ravi Shankar? And exactly how much can you tell me about India so as to qualify your enjoyment? Should I stop listening to Ravi Shankar, since I don't know and don't intend to learn about India?

...since you say it's not a bias based on relative interest in food as compared with fashion, then in the same way the coachella girl ought not wear the oooh! pretty headdress should I not listen to my oooh! jammin! Ravi cds? If that's too far, then maybe just make sure that I don't 'advertise' myself as a fan of Indian music lest someone mistakenly believe that my enjoyment of the music is anything more than superficial?

-----

What would your advice be then to the hypothetical coachella girl? "Stick to you own culture!" ?? "Why don't you take that headdress off and go study Native American history and then it will be OK if you bring it back next year" ??

... but what is coachella girl's culture? If you break it down, it's all appropriated. You cannot escape cultural appropriation, it permeates almost every detail of your life, from the coffee you drink, to the language you speak, the clothes you wear.

I have taken time to immerse myself in, study, and understand a foreign culture (well, as best as I can), and would you like to know what I learned about it? That it's appropriated from other cultures. And that's for a relatively isolated culture, historically speaking. And this is what has helped me to come to these views on cultural appropriation.

-----

It kinda seems to me that your real issue is just with posers. That kind of thing certainly bothers me, too. But consider that people being fake is not limited to their superficial interest in non-white cultures. I believe that many people trying to frame "cultural appropriation" as a social infraction are really trying to condemn superficiality but just getting mixed up because they fail to see the big picture: culture = appropriation

-----

I kinda think people just want to especially hate on people wearing Native American (or has it officially been changed to Indigenous American?) items because they got genocided. Not to make light of that fact, but we need to at least recognize that bias. I also think people just wanna hate on dumb, pretty girls.

 

[tedtan]

And, if anyone DOES have any good taco recipies, I'm all ears - I'd particularly be up for a couple braised pork recipes. I've done a couple carnitas recipes, but in general I haven't really been floored - maybe this is the Italian in me but I'd like something a little more flavored and stewed.

To get this thread back on track:

Carnitas are better IMO if they are slow cooked in some type of marinade (like in a crock pot) so they absorb the flavor all day long as they cook. You can shake the juice off and drop the meat in a hot skillet for a bit if you want it a bit caramelized.

But I think the dish you are looking for is tacos al pastor. In Texas, the pork is usually chopped, but in Mexico, it would cook on a rotisserie and the vendor would slice some off (like gyro lamb) and sear it on a skillet before serving on soft corn tortillas. Either way has more flavor than carnitas and goes well with pineapple (I've even seen some places mix the pastor with pineapple in the taco, though I doubt that is authentic).

I don't have a recipe or a cookbook to recommend, but that should point you in the right direction.