Sinead O'Connor, now a Muslim, upsets Muslims by hating white people...

[spudmunkey]

"Sinead o'Connor is a hypocritical muslim."
"Here's the difference between carnitas and al pastor."

Thank you, SSO.

 

[tedtan]

Any time.

 

[Drew]

To get this thread back on track:

Carnitas are better IMO if they are slow cooked in some type of marinade (like in a crock pot) so they absorb the flavor all day long as they cook. You can shake the juice off and drop the meat in a hot skillet for a bit if you want it a bit caramelized.

But I think the dish you are looking for is tacos al pastor. In Texas, the pork is usually chopped, but in Mexico, it would cook on a rotisserie and the vendor would slice some off (like gyro lamb) and sear it on a skillet before serving on soft corn tortillas. Either way has more flavor than carnitas and goes well with pineapple (I've even seen some places mix the pastor with pineapple in the taco, though I doubt that is authentic).

I don't have a recipe or a cookbook to recommend, but that should point you in the right direction.

Yeah, a couple local mexican places around me do that and it's pretty good. Idunno, though... Gotta do some digging.

stuff

No, you're still not understanding the point I'm making.

"look at me! I'm wearing a headdress! I'm a Native American!" is offensive because it betrays a complete lack of understanding of the cultural traditions it's borrowing from.

Eating a taco is not cultural appropriation. "Look at me! I'm a white dude making tacos, I'm so Mexican!" with a can of El Paso taco sauce and ground beef spice mix is very likely to be cultural appropriation. Putting the work in to actually learn the culinary traditions and techniques before opening a Mexican restaurant, as a white man, is way more likely to be something you can defend from accusations of cultural appropriation.

Listening to a Ravi Shankar album - to be honest, I'm not sure I ever have - is not cultural appropriation. Picking up a sarod or sitar and writing drone-y music with "exotic" themes - hi, Beatles, looking at you! - on the other hand, is very likely cultural appropriation. Spending the decade or two generally considered necessary to really master the traditions of indian classical music and then releasing an album performing traditional ragas as a white man (or woman) on the other hand is way less likely to lead to accusations of cultural appropriation - Danny Carey, for example, has been studying tabla playing for a couple decades now, and while it definitely influences his playing it comes across in a very non-traditional manner, yet I don't know anyone who's accused him of cultural appropriation.

I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up and defensive about this - when you zoom out to the macro level, I think this is pretty pretty clear; there's a difference between immersing yourself in a tradition, and simply grabbing bits and pieces of things that you don't understand. And, not for nothing, I'd point out it's no coincidence that generally the groups being appropriated from are historically oppressed and marginalized, and those doing the cultural appropriation are historically the oppressors, so it's absolutely about a power imbalance, and as a white man saying "cultural appropriation is a myth" as a white man yourself is an extension of that power imbalance.

If a historically oppressed group is crying foul about cultural appropriation, then I think we as the descendants of those who have historically benefited from that oppression have to at LEAST hear them out.

 

[vilk]

I'm not being defensive; I'm trying to explain it to you better because you keep replying to me with stuff that is more or less non-sequitur to my point, which I'm convinced you still aren't hearing. I certainly believe that I get your point, but your point isn't a response to my own...

"look at me! I'm wearing a headdress! I'm a Native American!"

^No one is doing this. Well, except maybe some actual Native Americans. But I don't believe that is the reason why girls wear headdresses to coachella. What if someone saw you with a bowl of ramen and assumed you were saying "look at me! I'm eating ramen! I'm Chinese!" (But vilk, isn't ramen Japanese? They culturally appropriated it from China, like they did with their writing system and Buddhism etc etc etc. ((BTW, the Chinese culturally appropriated Buddhism from India.)))

I guess I lack the ability to explain it any better than I already have, so if you still can't see how moot and capricious the whole concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is then I'm sorry especially because all cultures are ultimately derived from other cultural appropriations, I just can't find the value in addressing it for the purpose of putting innocent people down.

Obviously, being racist is no good, and using cultural items to target a group for hateful reasons is wrong. (Then again, I seem to be perfectly OK with metal bands trashing Christianity and blatantly desecrating their symbols lol). But that is an entirely separate issue from modern attempts to suggest that there is some inherent and wholly negative quality to cultural appropriation (despite that it permeates all culture). Which is also an entirely separate issue from the perceived negative quality of being a poser or being superficial--not that there's any quantitative way to measure that anyway. I'm not advocating on behalf of ignorance; I think there is value in learning about the cultures you choose to include in your life whether it be food, dress, music, etc. But it's unrealistic to expect everyone to become an expert in all cultures simply to enjoy a food, dress, music, etc. And even if one refrained from foreign foods or headdresses, they'd still technically be engaging in cultural appropriation simply by the nature of living in America (or anywhere these days, society is becoming global).

Cultural appropriation can be a good thing. I'd also argue that it's a natural thing. It is the reason why we have many of the things we enjoy in life today.

I'm sorry for repeating myself so much

 

[narad]

I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.

It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.

I generally agree with you on this stuff, but diverge in that, while all culture is appropriated, some culture comes with baggage. For instance, if you were a native american born on a reservation you're at quite a disadvantage in succeeding the usual path to the american dream, and have other issues, like.. do you learn the tribal language, knowing it will otherwise die out, and take part in keeping that culture alive. Or do you prioritize making it in the larger society? When you fight against those challenges and make hard decisions like that, you have this vested interest, and seeing someone grab some bit of your culture because it's cool is a bit insulting, especially in the larger narrative of native american history.

In short, in your view it sounds like, everyone's entitled to culture because everyone's their own person, and culture is constantly mixing and changing. Cool stuff is cool and no one owns it. But some people pay a cost for their culture (or associated things like ethnic background).

But yea, IIRC you were in Japan, and then I'm pretty sure at some point you've seen young Japanese boys dicking around with fake kendo-style sword fighting. The idea of kids of other races being accused of cultural appropriation for similar behavior is absurd, when both groups of kids are equally oblivious to any real significance of that bit of culture. This sort of scenario can be applied to a lot of the cultural appropriation accusations I see.

In my view @Drew 's analogy is flawed -- the girl with the headdress at Coachella is offensive to native american culture in the same way a native american girl wearing the headdress would be -- either guilty of similar ignorance, or by knowingly borrowing something of cultural significance to just look awesome at a music festival. And similarly, the girl opening the fusion restaurant isn't any more or less guilty of cultural appropriation, regardless of how much time she spent in the books.

 

[vilk]

I generally agree with you on this stuff, but diverge in that, while all culture is appropriated, some culture comes with baggage. For instance, if you were a native american born on a reservation you're at quite a disadvantage in succeeding the usual path to the american dream, and have other issues, like.. do you learn the tribal language, knowing it will otherwise die out, and take part in keeping that culture alive. Or do you prioritize making it in the larger society? When you fight against those challenges and make hard decisions like that, you have this vested interest, and seeing someone grab some bit of your culture because it's cool is a bit insulting, especially in the larger narrative of native american history.

I certainly don't disagree with the first part of what you wrote. White privilege, or in this context, non-white anti-privilege? is certainly a fact of reality, and it's also measurable in many ways.

However, I guess I disagree that it's insulting by nature. Now maybe I'm not capable of understanding because of my own white privilege? But as a fellow Oubei-jin, narad, have you ever felt offended by the many ways that the Japanese appropriate Western culture? I haven't. I've thought it was silly and inaccurate (as it often is), but I never felt like these people are attacking me. Because they aren't. They're just being Japanese; it has nothing to do with me. In today's day and age we have developed a sort of culture of victimhood. It began with minorities who were actual victims of real racism, but it has been appropriated by virtually everyone at this point, even white billionaire presidents. Now that is a subject that actually is related to the concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction. But I digress.

 

[Drew]

Vilk, end of the day, I think you're wrong, I think there's a danger in the believe that "cultural appropriation is always ok," and I don't think you're going to change my mind.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Ah... The United States of America... A melting pot of culture appropriation.

Can someone tell me how to act white? Do we just go back to building picket fences, reading a newspaper, combing our hair to the sides? I'm lost here.

 

[vilk]

Vilk, end of the day, I think you're wrong, I think there's a danger in the believe that "cultural appropriation is always ok," and I don't think you're going to change my mind.

But that's still not even what I'm saying... might be closer if you just left it at "cultural appropriation is always"... oh well...

 

[Drew]

Ah... The United States of America... A melting pot of culture appropriation.

Can someone tell me how to act white? Do we just go back to building picket fences, reading a newspaper, combing our hair to the sides? I'm lost here.

Buy a white picket fence, a car, a garage, a chicken, a pot to put it in, and and a half kids.

Just don't blame me when the cops start nosing around wondering what you're doing with half a kid.

 

[Drew]

But that's still not even what I'm saying... might be closer if you just left it at "cultural appropriation is always"... oh well...

I mean, I thought this was pretty explicit:

I'm not really interested in going there on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?

No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.

...if you wanted to nitpick, you could argue that it was "Cultural appropriation is never wrong," rather than "...always ok," but that's about it.

 

[tedtan]

I think vilk is saying that 1) no one owns culture, and 2) even if they did, it was appropriated from elsewhere long before we existed, so they don't really own it anyway. Therefore, culture should be a free for all so long as it is not used in a discriminatory fashion.

Is that correct?

 

[vilk]

I mean, I thought this was pretty explicit:


...if you wanted to nitpick, you could argue that it was "Cultural appropriation is never wrong," rather than "...always ok," but that's about it.

I don't see it, didn't write it. Maybe try reading what I've written since that first post over again? I don't mean that condescendingly. I honestly have no idea how you can't figure out what I'm trying to say at this point, unless it's my own inability to articulate what I mean. And if you can, then I honestly have no idea why you would reply suggesting that it's my point of view that "cultural appropriation is always OK" or "never wrong". It would be better to say "cultural appropriation is not inherently wrong" or "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is a concept that is reliant on ignorance of the origin of culture" or something. In your color analogy--cultural appropriation is neither black nor white nor grey; rather it's the canvas. idk.

I think vilk is saying that 1) no one owns culture, and 2) even if they did, it was appropriated from elsewhere long before we existed, so they don't really own it anyway. Therefore, culture should be a free for all so long as it is not used in a discriminatory fashion.

Is that correct?

It's pretty close. I think saying "free for all" puts a little bit of a 'chaotic' spin on it but yeah I guess that's what I'm saying.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Thank fuck FOR culture appropriation because we may not have this website or the music that most of the users here enjoy.

 

[eggy in a bready]

I'm not really interested in going there on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?

well, there is that whole imperial colonialism thing

 

[narad]

However, I guess I disagree that it's insulting by nature. Now maybe I'm not capable of understanding because of my own white privilege? But as a fellow Oubei-jin, narad, have you ever felt offended by the many ways that the Japanese appropriate Western culture? I haven't. I've thought it was silly and inaccurate (as it often is), but I never felt like these people are attacking me. Because they aren't. They're just being Japanese; it has nothing to do with me. In today's day and age we have developed a sort of culture of victimhood. It began with minorities who were actual victims of real racism, but it has been appropriated by virtually everyone at this point, even white billionaire presidents. Now that is a subject that actually is related to the concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction. But I digress.

Well, not insulting by nature, but in context. I mean, I think you have to admit that if you were a native american grandma who had tried to keep the traditions alive and kind of fought a losing battle to do so, against a lot of american government policy and business practices, it would be insulting to see a headdress in situations like Coachella blonde bimbo, or .. as the emblem of the oil company that ran a pipeline through your reservation. But to me it's not as big a thing as "cultural appropriation", so I basically agree with it not being a thing in many ways -- just that people should be considerate of culture when they decide to make use of a cultural symbol in a way that may be insulting.

I don't think getting a PhD in native american history and culture, and understanding the significance of something like a headdress, makes it any less insulting to wear it in a context like a fashion accessory at Coachella.

And nah, naturally I'm not offended by the huge amount of cultural "absorption" that goes on in Japan. I live in Yoyogi -- you gotta love those rockabilly dancers.

I'm sure you guys probably came across this at some point?
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/08/02/japanese-birthday-party_a_23061529/

 

[BrailleDecibel]

You know when your mom would drag you to church, and there would be people who went WAY harder for Jesus than the other church goers?

They were new recent converts. They felt like they had to make up for lost Jesus and “prove” that they are really born again. You know to avoid a lake of fire and brimstone.

When people change from any religion to another there’s a tendency to go “all in” to prove they are serious.

But people do this when they get a new hobby too. Frank from the office starts taking golf lessons and likes it? By month 3 he’s going to own a $2-3k set of clubs and several fruity outfits. (CrossFit, Veganism, etc etc).

Shuhada is just trying to figure out where they belong.

That said it’s still offensive and seems to undermine the entire reason one would change faiths.

/THREAD.

 

[InHiding]

It’s easy for me to read people soemtimes. Immediately when I saw this whore back in the 80’s I knew she was fucking insane, should be locked up.

 

[Drew]

Please. She may have highly questionable political views, but that's hardly the same as having sex with people for money!!

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Please. She may have highly questionable political views, but that's hardly the same as having sex with people for money!!

I mean, at this point, it doesn't really matter, though I will say I've got more respect for a whore than a self-hating ignorant racist piece of shit.