So Gaga wants to meet with Obama about bullying

[Konfyouzd]

This. So much this. Bullies try to find what they perceive to be as the weakest kid in the class and use them as emotional and physical punching bag. But the ones that are known to handle themselves well usually get left alone. My advice:
Get bullied? Curb stomp the bastard and he will never mess with you again.

However, that only applies to your garden variety type bullying. Bullying that has its roots in hate and prejudice is much more dangerous. If you try to defend yourself with force, it will only serve to inflame the situation. You use fists, the bigot will be back with a knife, putting you in a kill or be killed situation. Its THOSE situations in which I feel that we need to legislate against more strongly against bullies and less against their victims. I believe that in schools, if you get caught bullying a kid due to race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation, you are expelled. Even as a first time offense. Better that, than letting shit slide and said victim snapping and killing themselves or others.

They have legislation for this. It's classified as a hate crime, no?

 

[Rev2010]

Its THOSE situations in which I feel that we need to legislate against more strongly against bullies and less against their victims.

I don't get it... in another thread people that are against the death penalty use statics in their arguments that say having the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrent for people to not commit a murder.

Yet here in this thread there are those that think there should be legislation to make bullying a special instance crime. So if having these added laws, like the hate crime law, doesn't actually deter people than what is the point exactly in wanting further legislation? We're also talking about the fact that most bullying tends to occur among ages where prosecution just isn't anywhere near the penalty of an adult. So if there are bullying laws what are they going to do, put a 13 year old kid in prison? Nah, of course not right... so what then... the parents get jailed?

IMO prevention is better than simply punishing after the event occurred. I strongly believe in punishment of course but at that point the mental and/or physical damage is likely done and will leave behind something the person will keep with them forever. So what type of legislation, for those of you that think there needs to be extra laws for this, do you think needs to be enacted?


Rev.

 

[Konfyouzd]

^ Well in here it seems that the line between "bullying" and "hate crimes" is rapidly blurring. And I agree that being proactive is far better than being reactive. But that starts in the home and is enforced elsewhere. Parents should be doing a fair bit of nuturing at home and probably pay more attention to the lives they bring into this world school officials should be more vigilant.

Can't catch it every time, but no matter how good you are, you're never perfect so there's always room for improvement.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

Solution: Let teachers spank kids again . Bullies might think twice if they know bullying will mean going outside to get a switch for the teacher to tan their hide with .

 

[murakami]

i see a problem with people labelling any ordeal as a hate crime or an act of racism. in most cases, when people see that the victim was of different color or gay etc... they are quick to state that it was an act of prejudice. now i am not saying that is always the case, but i can't possibly believe that all cases are the result of some ass hating on other races.

i don't want to step on any toes, but i think it's easy to post blame on certain things entirely, like in this case, a bully who was bagging on the kid. he may possible had a mental imbalance that his parents ignored etc.. but yeah, i most definitely agree that the parents tutelage, if done properly, could have done a world of a difference for the victim.

^ Well in here it seems that the line between "bullying" and "hate crimes" is rapidly blurring. And I agree that being proactive is far better than being reactive. But that starts in the home and is enforced elsewhere. Parents should be doing a fair bit of nuturing at home and probably pay more attention to the lives they bring into this world school officials should be more vigilant.

Can't catch it every time, but no matter how good you are, you're never perfect so there's always room for improvement.

 

[Konfyouzd]

i see a problem with people labelling any ordeal as a hate crime or an act of racism. in most cases, when people see that the victim was of different color or gay etc... they are quick to state that it was an act of prejudice. now i am not saying that is always the case, but i can't possibly believe that all cases are the result of some ass hating on other races.

i don't want to step on any toes, but i think it's easy to post blame on certain things entirely, like in this case, a bully who was bagging on the kid. he may possible had a mental imbalance that his parents ignored etc.. but yeah, i most definitely agree that the parents tutelage, if done properly, could have done a world of a difference for the victim.

And you're definitely right about that. Sometimes it definitely is NOT a hate crime. But if you're being bullied because you're gay then I feel like it falls under that umbrella. If you're being bullied and just happen to be gay then ppl will sometimes try to make shit out to be more than it is bc, let's face it, this country loves drama...

Proof...

 

[murakami]

^

I read in the paper a couple of months ago of a guy(who was gay) trying to hit on another guy in a bar. apparently the gay person was extremely aggressive in making something happen between the two. the end result was the straight guy pushing the gay person backwards who then slipped and knocked his head on the cement. i think he died if i remember correctly. anyways, my city sort of celebrates homosexualility quite a bit haha... the straight guy had the book thrown at him and the crime itself was considered a hate crime... -_-

 

[Konfyouzd]

Now that isn't fair. But it's just like if a white guy gets in a fight w/ anything but a white guy and wins...

 

[tacotiklah]

Hate crime laws don't exactly get enforced at elementary schools. How about this then:

If your kid commits hate-fueled bullying both the kid AND the parents are liable for both criminal charges AND civil compensation (in the case of hospital bills and whatnot). AFAIK (which isn't much tbvh) the most that can happen at the moment is a whole lot of nothing despite there being laws that say otherwise.

So fine, you have me sold that the law is utterly useless, therefore there is no need to pass more, and that people just need to arm themselves. Start shit with me about anything, then I can just put you in the hospital. Problem solved, right?

Or how about maybe the law provides victims the right to beat the utter shit out of the bully's parents for being useless as hell, and any attempt to defend themselves will result in criminal charges?

Nope, none of those work in the real world. There isn't a whole lot that a gay 13 year old kid can do about a bully's upbringing. If the kid tells his parents, and the parents make a complaint, it's usually ignored. Even if it isn't, there isn't a whole hell of a lot a school can do to make the bully's parents stop being neglectful asshats. So it all comes down to the gay kid settling the problem himself. Hence where the gay kid's parents come into play by teaching them how to handle himself when it comes to bullies. Oh, just one problem......parents don't know the kid is gay, and probably wouldn't accept him if they knew he was, so the kid can't really say anything to his parents. Now what the hell does he do? Can't tell a teacher, because the teacher (regardless of what any law says otherwise) may treat the kid like crap due to being gay. Only hope the kid has lies in his friends that can back him up when he gets teased, taunted, or beat fucking senseless. Trouble again, is not too many middle school kids take kindly to gay kids. So our troubled protagonist here may have like ONE friend they can go to. Not much of a defense against a really determined asshat with an axe to grind against "fags".

So basically NOBODY can protect this kid. Everyday becomes a living hell, and there's just no way to end it. How does he solve the problem? Suicide starts to look like a viable option, because all others have been exhausted.

I see how people can't understand that homosexuality is a bit more "special" that other cases of minorities, but lets face the facts. Your parents usually won't disown you because you're black/hispanic/asian. You still have the option of going to them when shit gets real. Homosexuals don't, because fear of their parents reactions keeps that from being an option. In all fairness though, I can't foresee any other thing in which LBGT people have it any worse than other minorities. It all comes down to the fact that people are completely fucked up, and I'm still praying for the apocalypse.



Another point I'd like to bring up:
How the hell does one need to be "qualified" to speak with the president? From my understanding, the constitution was setup so that people could actually SPEAK with their elected representatives about their concerns. Was unaware that anybody had to take a test, or earn a degree to speak with a public official....

 

[vampiregenocide]

Solution: Let teachers spank kids again . Bullies might think twice if they know bullying will mean going outside to get a switch for the teacher to tan their hide with .

Whether you're serious or not I don't know, but I don't think you're far from right. Kids are too brave these days, they need a good slap.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Whether you're serious or not I don't know, but I don't think you're far from right. Kids are too brave these days, they need a good slap.

They REALLY do

 

[Konfyouzd]

But isn't the new age thing to talk to your kids about their feelings? That's working, right?

Fear of my father's wrath kept me out of so much trouble. And fear that my mom would say, "I won't tell him," and do the shit anyway.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

But isn't the new age thing to talk to your kids about their feelings? That's working, right?

Spanking kids isn't something that works across the board. Some kids just need to be spoken to..but others just plain need an ass whoopin.

 

[vampiregenocide]

Spanking kids isn't something that works across the board. Some kids just need to be spoken to..but others just plain need an ass whoopin.

This.

 

[murakami]

Hate crime laws don't exactly get enforced at elementary schools. How about this then:

If your kid commits hate-fueled bullying both the kid AND the parents are liable for both criminal charges AND civil compensation (in the case of hospital bills and whatnot). AFAIK (which isn't much tbvh) the most that can happen at the moment is a whole lot of nothing despite there being laws that say otherwise.

So fine, you have me sold that the law is utterly useless, therefore there is no need to pass more, and that people just need to arm themselves. Start shit with me about anything, then I can just put you in the hospital. Problem solved, right?

Or how about maybe the law provides victims the right to beat the utter shit out of the bully's parents for being useless as hell, and any attempt to defend themselves will result in criminal charges?

Nope, none of those work in the real world. There isn't a whole lot that a gay 13 year old kid can do about a bully's upbringing. If the kid tells his parents, and the parents make a complaint, it's usually ignored. Even if it isn't, there isn't a whole hell of a lot a school can do to make the bully's parents stop being neglectful asshats. So it all comes down to the gay kid settling the problem himself. Hence where the gay kid's parents come into play by teaching them how to handle himself when it comes to bullies. Oh, just one problem......parents don't know the kid is gay, and probably wouldn't accept him if they knew he was, so the kid can't really say anything to his parents. Now what the hell does he do? Can't tell a teacher, because the teacher (regardless of what any law says otherwise) may treat the kid like crap due to being gay. Only hope the kid has lies in his friends that can back him up when he gets teased, taunted, or beat fucking senseless. Trouble again, is not too many middle school kids take kindly to gay kids. So our troubled protagonist here may have like ONE friend they can go to. Not much of a defense against a really determined asshat with an axe to grind against "fags".

So basically NOBODY can protect this kid. Everyday becomes a living hell, and there's just no way to end it. How does he solve the problem? Suicide starts to look like a viable option, because all others have been exhausted.

I see how people can't understand that homosexuality is a bit more "special" that other cases of minorities, but lets face the facts. Your parents usually won't disown you because you're black/hispanic/asian. You still have the option of going to them when shit gets real. Homosexuals don't, because fear of their parents reactions keeps that from being an option. In all fairness though, I can't foresee any other thing in which LBGT people have it any worse than other minorities. It all comes down to the fact that people are completely fucked up, and I'm still praying for the apocalypse.



Another point I'd like to bring up:
How the hell does one need to be "qualified" to speak with the president? From my understanding, the constitution was setup so that people could actually SPEAK with their elected representatives about their concerns. Was unaware that anybody had to take a test, or earn a degree to speak with a public official....

i dont think you should treat homosexuals differently when it comes to these problems. it'll just create a greater rift between them and the other people who are not gay.

don't get me wrong; i really feel that this child was dealt a bad set, but his case is no different from another child who was bullied for whatever reason he was bullied for. it's a sad case, but having lady shemale gaga do anything IS SERIOUSLY NOT GOING TO CUT SHIT.

it's a good endeavor, but what will it do? wouldn't it cause more people to listen to her music which may cause more feminism in men? yes, thats an extremely dumb theory, but if you have someone who dresses obscene just for the hell of, it's basically telling other kids to do the same which will probably result in their bully predicament. look at all the emo bands; shit, i bet you a lot of people talk shit to emo kids all the time at school. i don't flat out go outside and call a emo guy a fag, but other WILL do it because they're dressing the same way their idols do e.g. musicians/actors etc...

also, i don't think dressing emo will get you bullied, but it definitely makes you an easy target. whether you dress that way to get attention or to look cool, you're catching attention. just like a slutty dressed woman doesn't want pervy eyes heading her way. well too bad, bitch! you dressing that way, you getting it that way

if you want someone to stand up to bullying, get a football player or hockey player to tell their story. i bet they were all jocks in high school, but you never know.

 

[Konfyouzd]

^ I tried to make that point before. Tread lightly, sir. In retrospect I both agree AND disagree with that.

 

[murakami]

^

understood. though i am not trying to hurt anybody here, and my attentions are good; i just strongly believe that you just cant make a person NOT hate the color red, you know what i mean?

some people just hate on certain fashion, how a person speaks etc... now i respect that people can dress and act the way they want in public because that does take bravery... but people have to realize you can't just go all willy nilly and shit(it's just not respectful at times). if you are gay, thats great. ~ however, if you go about flaunting it around like elton john to get attention, then of course you'll get the 'bad attention'. ~ shit, sometimes i see my friends flashing a big roll of cash just to show off. haha, it's retarded and i am sure a lot people look down on it because they think my friend is showing off.(which i am sure he is)

i'll also add that i understand that a person cannot simply fake who he/she is. if you want to be that kind of person then i hope it is natural and not some sort of ploy to raise eyebrows.

 

[Konfyouzd]

^

understood. though i am not trying to hurt anybody here, and my attentions are good; i just strongly believe that you just cant make a person NOT hate the color red, you know what i mean?

some people just hate on certain fashion, how a person speaks etc... now i respect that people can dress and act the way they want in public because that does take bravery... but people have to realize you can't just go all willy nilly and shit(it's just not respectful at times). if you are gay, thats great. ~ however, if you go about flaunting it around like elton john to get attention, then of course you'll get the 'bad attention'. ~ shit, sometimes i see my friends flashing a big roll of cash just to show off. haha, it's retarded and i am sure a lot people look down on it because they think my friend is showing off.(which i am sure he is)

i'll also add that i understand that a person cannot simply fake who he/she is. if you want to be that kind of person then i hope it is natural and not some sort of ploy to raise eyebrows.

See but the thing about it is this... You don't even have to flaunt it to have shit happen. I had a friend in college who was gay. One of the coolest guys I've ever met in my life and most other ppl seemed to agree. A girl mentioned to some guy at a party that he was gay... That guy pulled a knife on him later that night for it completely unprompted.

 

[Rev2010]

you have me sold that the law is utterly useless, therefore there is no need to pass more, and that people just need to arm themselves. Start shit with me about anything, then I can just put you in the hospital. Problem solved, right?

Firstly, calm the heck down!

There isn't a whole lot that a gay 13 year old kid can do about a bully's upbringing

Nor is there anything any new anti-bullying laws will do to help that either.

Oh, just one problem......parents don't know the kid is gay, and probably wouldn't accept him if they knew he was, so the kid can't really say anything to his parents..

That's pure bullshit. Lady Gaga tells all these people to love themselves and society has come waaay far with the acceptance of homosexuals even compared to 40 years ago! It's a VERY public topic now with a ton of awareness. If a kid can't tell his parents then he is simply keeping a secret (or lying) to them and that is a whole other issue. Parents should accept their kids independent on their sexuality and if they don't there's nothing anti-bullying laws can do to help it anyway. Besides, bullying is bullying, a kid doesn't have to say they are being bullied because they are gay. Additionally, this isn't only about being gay so chill out with pigeon-holing the whole issue to gays.

Suicide starts to look like a viable option, because all others have been exhausted.

Sorry but you lost me. How is suicide ever a viable option??? If I were this hypothetical kid I would prefer to run away and live elsewhere barely making ends meet than to kill myself!!!

I see how people can't understand that homosexuality is a bit more "special" that other cases of minorities

Oh yeah, because being gay deserves more attention and help than some poor black, white, or hispanic kid being beaten daily cause of their race??? Come on now

How the hell does one need to be "qualified" to speak with the president? From my understanding, the constitution was setup so that people could actually SPEAK with their elected representatives about their concerns. Was unaware that anybody had to take a test, or earn a degree to speak with a public official....

Oh right... well why don't you try and get a meeting with the president then? Please let us all know how that works out

You too seem to be missing the point. I've said it a dozen times so I won't say it again, you can read my past posts.


Rev.

 

[tacotiklah]

@Rev
Try reading my post rhetorically and try to pick up on my cynicism as opposed to literally.

Im trying not to pigeon-hole anything on this issue. It came to light that the purpose of lady gaga's visit was due to a gay kid being bullied to the point that he felt suicide was the only way out. I feel then that there is merit in discussing gays and bullying. Your need to NOT want to discuss that particular issue makes me raise an eyebrow.

Next, advancements have certainly been made since the stonewall riots, but nowhere NEAR the level you are thinking of. Just recently (as in within the last 3 months), 2 major disses to my local gay community have been committed:
-A local business was covered in graffiti with slurs like "Kill all homos" and "God hates fags". Worst part is that the city council took almost a month to clean up the graffiti, then a couple more weeks to even BEGIN investigating anything.
-Local fair bought a bunch of rainbow flags not knowing what they meant. Things were fine and dandy until some crazy bitch from the local baptist church cussed them out for supporting gays by waving those flags. In the horror of realization, they took down every flag and refused to put them back up.

The guy Ive been dating works at the local LGBT center as a crisis counselor and regularly gets calls from LGBT kids saying things like how they came out to their parents and one or more of the following happened:
-was verbally/physically abused
-Was placed on psych meds and put into therapy to 'stop being gay'
-Thrown out of their home as a result, despite still being a minor
-Put up for adoption

All true stories man. Admittedly the more extreme cases, but that shit happens and isnt that uncommon. Point? For ever step forward, we take two backwards.

-And I said that gays only get it slightly worse in the fact that not even their parents are a guaranteed resource and haven to discuss being bullied. Again, nobody puts a kid on meds and strict counseling regiment to get them to stop being black/asian/hispanic.