Solar Power In an Overabundance?

[phaeded0ut]

Dear all,

Sorry, I was a bit late with this particular bit of news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/business/27novel.html?em

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/business/global/01tariff.html?em

The former talks about some advances in private houses and newer panels to integrate into a house's existing roof or replace it completely. Not much in the way of international information relative to what the subsidies are in Europe relative to what incentives exist within the USA.

The latter article deals in newly-found tarrifs for solar panels and the fact that an arbitrary decision was made to reclassify them in the same category as "electric generators." This is an increase from "duty-free" to 2.5%.
It'll be interesting to see what is or is not done on this issue.

... and my program is still compiling... sigh...

 

[xXxPriestessxXx]

I actually had a teacher in college who lived in California for and while and she powered her house totally from Solar panels. She said that she produced enough power during the summer that she was gaining credit from the electricity company to the tune of around a hundred dollars a month. Then when winter came she had to pay for the bill but with all the credit she recieved it was really low. That said I think it is amazing how far we have come with these things.

She was also mentioning something about a new development being tested in which they used plant chloroplast to harness energy effectively making the panels even greener because less synthetic materials would be used. Not sure about where that stands now but sounds like an interesting idea none the less.

I know that it is incredibly expensive to install solar panels on a house but honestly at the current rate it seems that they pay for themselves. I would really like the see the US rise to the occasion on this one and makes US made panels more affordable. They are a very big move towards greener energy. If we design them correctly and make them competitive with the ones from China then the tarriff wouldn't be an issue right?

 

[t3sser4ct]

Manufactured panels are pretty expensive right now, but I expect the prices to drop, especially as they roll out newer technologies. (The manufacturers built a ton of panels, expecting everyone to "go green", but few people did, so their stock dropped.)

If you were to buy manufactured panels and install everything yourself, you'd be looking at about $30,000 for 4kW. (100W panels cost about $500-600 apiece, depending on what kind you get. A grid-tie inverter will cost about $2,500-4,500.) I've been researching solar energy for a little while now, and I'm planning to build my own panels soon. Panels can be built for about $100 per panel. If you were to build the panels yourself (and buy the inverter), your cost would be roughly within $10,000 for the same amount of power.

I don't think every state will pay you for the energy you produce (pretty sure it's just California), but if you have a grid-tie inverter, you can hook your panels up to your electric meter (legally), and anything you produce will turn the meter in the opposite direction. That way, you can produce more than you need during the day, then use the city's power grid at night, and still pay nothing.

BTW, don't buy Chinese panels, even if they don't jack the prices up. I shouldn't have to tell you why.

And phaeded0ut, whatcha compiling?

 

[xXxPriestessxXx]

So how hard is it to assemble your own panel? It seems like since it is so much cheaper to make it yourself that more people would be doing that than buying them, but I guess most people are lazy these days too.

Also how much usable light do you get up there in Morgantown? The same teacher was telling me that it not practical at all for her to install solar panels here because she doesn't receive enough usable light due to trees. Just wondered what it was like up there or if you have found a way to get around the problems.

 

[ralphy1976]

Man, lee, how do you find all those subject which i am partial too!!!!???

As it happens i know someone who is creating a "solar farm" business in Italy.

As you have all said, solar panels can truly be used to power a house. However it depends on 2 things : 1- how much power your house uses (ie the amount of toys we have) and 2 the overall house area which can be covered by those panels. For instance in France there are laws as to what the maximum area can be (as it has not to deteriorate the overall charm of the location)

I'll skip all the rest of technology and what not...yada..yada...yada... for a house it works, but i'll just like to mention something about claims that we could all live "for free" if we could harness the "solar power"

One thing for sure is that at the moment we can not power industries, hospital, toels..etc..with the sun. These facilities are too power hungry to be easily powered. The energy converted out from the sun into electricity (via those panels) is very low in Amps. To convert it back to something useable for the industry would require quite a huge amount of effort (and cost). Maybe with the advance in technology both the panel efficiency can be improve (but it is limited by the material used. If any of you have studied or are studying semi-conductor electronics then you will know what i am refering to)

The other little problem is availability. While it is nice to have your house powered by the sun, you would also need some battery (low DC, low amp) to ensure back-up.

I think we could learn from the canary Island. Most of the houses have solar panels and a small wind turbine (they are lucky enough to have both available!!) and they have a industrial power station to power the hospital, few industries and airport there.

Getting the right mix..like with alocohol!!!

 

[phaeded0ut]

And phaeded0ut, whatcha compiling?

Totally off topic:
CentOS/Red Hat Enterprise drivers for a piece of very specific (and tetchy) hardware that only was ever designed to run in MS Windows. It was driving me crazy, cause I kept getting nailed with different errors and a memory leak when I backed out some of my changes. UGH! Found some of the bugs in ddd and now have it partially working, but not quite where I'd be happy letting my coworkers destroy the resulting setup.

Semi-on-topic:
Ghislain, maybe because there's a whole world out there of extremely interesting concepts and experiences out there to be had and unfortunately for me, neither the time, nor the money to do them?

Back on-topic:
I want to say that with these newer designs wherein you're adding a series tiles that it might be somewhat easier to install yourself, I'd still have to say that an actual technician might be a kinder choice in the long-run, albeit a little more expensive in the short, Amanda. In the DC area, and within California, Colorado and I want to say that there are a few more states/commonwealths out there that have contractors, who can readily assist in such upgrade endeavors.

t3sser4ct, you've done quite a bit more research than I, a lowly renter, have done. Big-time, thanks for the info! Any links to share with folks, t3sser4ct?

In my neck of the woods, it would have to be something roof-mounted, rather than backyard mounted (not too many back/front yards large enough). The other problem is that we've got a fairly hefty amount of tree coverage and this would also reduce the amount of energy that could be had. Wind power has the above problems along with the issue of height restrictions, too.
With these new tile-shaped panels, there's a chance we might see a few more folks go for supplemental power, but that would really be the extent of what could be done due to the complete lack of design/infrastructure in the area.

One other silly odd-bit to add to this discussion (since we're headed in that direction) is has anyone thought of trying to add a greenroof to their home in addition to solar and wind power generators?
I've been told by a few firefighter friends that they loathe dealing with fires in such places, because they tend to fall through the roofs of such buildings or the roofs cave in after the structure is weakened due to the ensuing fire.

 

[ralphy1976]

greenroof? i am surprised to hear these. What is it advertised as in the USA?

 

[dpm]

Over in Australia we've now got water tanks as compulsory components of new houses due to serious water shortage issues. IMO the same thing should be done with solar panels. That would drive prices down due to the economics of mass production and competition, and create employment. It's also likely that the technology would develop faster due to demand for more efficiency and the sales volume involved. Right now solar panels are kind of a niche product but if we look at something like flat screen TVs as an example (first thing that came to mind) it's easy to see how development speeds up with demand for the product.

 

[Prydogga]

Over in Australia we've now got water tanks as compulsory components of new houses due to serious water shortage issues. IMO the same thing should be done with solar panels. That would drive prices down due to the economics of mass production and competition, and create employment. It's also likely that the technology would develop faster due to demand for more efficiency and the sales volume involved. Right now solar panels are kind of a niche product but if we look at something like flat screen TVs as an example (first thing that came to mind) it's easy to see how development speeds up with demand for the product.

I did not know that, good thing I already have a house.

 

[RenegadeDave]

Chiming in from a commercial standpoint:

These are not popping up on LEED projects at the moment because they're hugely expensive and most power companies will not agree to a rate on power returned to grid beyond 2.5 years (which is statutory). Once the 2.5 years expires, the power company typically pays about 1/3rd or 1/4th of what was originally agreed upon. Additionally, some areas (like DC) have moratoriums on photovoltaics as they can create glare.

If you're serious about reducing your power usage, look into beefing up the insulation in your exterior walls, new insulated windows, or you can go the extra mile and build solar shades over exposed windows to stop heat from coming through the windows. Obviously, CFL's everywhere you can stand them. Re-insulate your attic with foam rather than blow in R-30.

As a rule of thumb, I like to have CFLs on overhead fixtures, then for wall mounted or floor lamps I use regular incadescents, so I can take a break from the obnoxious white light that the CFLs emit.

But yeah, ground source heat pumps and solar cells seem like great ideas, but simply put the ROI just isn't there... yet.

Greenroofs for homes is a terrible idea, as they're HEAVY. The benefit of a "green roof" is that they don't create a heat island effect like asphalt shingle or EPDM/Mod Bit roofs. The roots of the plants filter rain water somewhat and reduce storm water run off (conversely, this still does not return water to the water table underground). Most green roofs are flat, which is a huge no-no in the home building front. Your typical home is stick built and most building with green roofs are concrete or steel framed. Green roofs are ideal for an urban setting where you do not have much green space.
Re-roofing your pitched roof with a high SRI (solar reflectance index) asphalt shingle (if you have a shingle roof) achieves part of the function of a green roof (reducing heat island) but won't reduce your rain water run off (but also won't require you to beef up the structure of your home).

These green home makeover shows love to throw out these neat green pieces of tech when they do something, but for the average consumer, these options aren't even on the table unless price is no object.

RenegadeDave, LEED AP

 

[xmetalhead69]

The solar industry over in New Jersey and Pennsylvannia is being seriously hampered by legislation, mostly due to unions. A recent law is requiring all solar projects to be prevailing wage, which makes it nearly impossible for small, non union companies to stay competitive.

 

[t3sser4ct]

So how hard is it to assemble your own panel? It seems like since it is so much cheaper to make it yourself that more people would be doing that than buying them, but I guess most people are lazy these days too.

Also how much usable light do you get up there in Morgantown? The same teacher was telling me that it not practical at all for her to install solar panels here because she doesn't receive enough usable light due to trees. Just wondered what it was like up there or if you have found a way to get around the problems.

It depends on what kind of panel you're building (frame type, size, etc.). For a normal 100-watt panel, the process is like this: You glue some poly-crystal cells face-down onto a piece of glass (with only a few dabs of glue; you don't want to cover the thing), then solder them together in series. Then it's just a matter of building or acquiring a frame, putting the glass in, and sealing it up. (The actual process is just a bit more involved than that, so if you want to try it yourself, let me know and I'll give you a more in-depth overview.) Once you get into a groove, you can probably do a panel per hour or faster.

If you're building the whole system by yourself and you want to use some sort of DC storage rather than an inverter, you'll also want to use diodes to keep the stored energy from going back through the solar cells when they're not producing.

The frames are probably the trickiest part. I was talking to an EE who has been using his own panels for several years, and he used old aluminum shower doors for his first batch. (He just took all of his home-made panels down and replaced them with fancy mono-crystal panels, but he told me that last year his electric bill for the entire year was $65. And he's an electrical engineer, so you know he's using lots of energy.) Some people build wooden frames, but that can cause problems down the road. If you're a carpenter or woodworker and you know what you're doing, though, it might be a better option.

The amount of light your receive depends on your location and your local environment. We get an average of about 4-5 hours of sun per day here (year-round), so that has to be factored into the calculations for determining how many panels I need. You also need to know the proper angle and direction for getting the most sun; this information is available on the web (I'll try to find some links for you guys later). If you have trees or clouds in the way, that's obviously going to be a problem. Your panels will probably still produce if there's a partial obstruction, but the total output is going to go way down.

The other little problem is availability. While it is nice to have your house powered by the sun, you would also need some battery (low DC, low amp) to ensure back-up.

That's one option, but unless you're a survivalist who wants to be completely severed from the power grid, I'd recommend going with a grid-tie inverter instead. It converts the DC from your panels to AC and drives your electric meter backward. That way, you don't have to worry about storing electricity for night, because you can use credit from the extra electricity you produce during the day to get free power from the grid.

t3sser4ct, you've done quite a bit more research than I, a lowly renter, have done. Big-time, thanks for the info! Any links to share with folks, t3sser4ct?

No problem! I have some links copied down somewhere. I'll try to dig them up and post them later.

Even though the technology has existed for a while, photovoltaic energy is still a new field in a sense, so with the big push for green energy, everyone is learning about it together now. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.