Something has to be done with live metal sound

[Underworld]

Well no shit, but for 20 they work well. What you just said is like, "Honda's are shit, we should all buy lambos". When really either does the job, one is just way better.

I have both 20$ musician's plugs and professional ear-molded plugs, and I would NEVER dare bring my 200$ plugs to a metal gig. 20$ plugs do the job just fine - they sound good, and reduce the volume by 20db, which is fine for most gigs and venues.

 

[Dores]

I have plenty of things I've noticed from going to live shows but these are some of the ones that apply directly to the sound. It should come as a complete surprise to absolutely noone that many of the issues with live metal sound could be fixed by doing a bit of work before the show to find good eq settings and then turning the fuck down.

1. Noone puts any real effort into getting a good live sound before the actual show under the incorrect assumption that the sound guy will do it for them.

2. Metal musicians have absolutely no understanding of context. By that I mean if they had a great sounding show at a large venue when everyone brought a full stack and turned their amp up to 10 they assume that the same will be true for the shoebox sized venue where the distance between themselves audience is literally less than 2 feet.

3. Any volume other than 0 or 10 is a a completely foreign concept that makes them uncomfortable, this also applies to distortion. You have no idea how many guitarists and bassists I have seen set the master volume on their amps to 10 but turn the channel volume to 3 to appease the sound guy. After two songs they then attempt to be sneaky and turn the channel volume up to ten as well and 90% of the time absolutely ruin their sound. After the show they generally go on to claim "it didn't sound heavy enough before" and that "anyone who turns down is a pussy", "if it's too loud you're too old" etc etc.

Bullshit like that is why I stopped going to shows altogether, if can't make out what you're playing because the drums eat your sound but I still have to wear earplugs and go home with ringing ears at the end of the night anyway I would rather stay home.

Totally agree.

And in my experience, toilet paper is 100x more effective than hearos. It dampens really evenly, and is free everywhere.

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

I would never put toilet paper found in a public bathroom in my ears. Disgusting...

 

[Dores]

You do realize that if toilet paper was dirty in the first place, wiping your butt with it would be just as disgusting? Unless it's wet, and as long as you don't take the paper at the very end of the roll, it's way cleaner than your hands are in the first place.

And still, you can always bring toilet paper from your house if you're picky. I was also worried at fist, but after using it once, I won't ever go back to anything else.

 

[Greatoliver]

I actually kinda wish that gigs weren't so loud I don't really see why band have to massively crank the volume right up - I think a lot of clarity would come if it wasn't killing your ears.

 

[robare99]

Guitar tones with scooped mids really get lost in the mix.

 

[noUser01]

I honestly think a huge part of it is that people need to start taking tips from recording and mixing.

When I was asked to help with the sound for a friend's rehearsal I was happy to help as I love their band (death metal stuff mostly) and love doing anything involving music. They both had AxeFX's and their bass player was using an Ampeg setup. Typical metal drumkit sound, very tight but still fairly fat sounding. I heard them and they sounded pretty good, then I thought I'd apply some recording knowledge to this and see what would happen. I had both guitar players scoop their bass with a roll off from about 100Hz downward. A bit less on the player who played rhythm more often (for obvious reasons, keeping the sound fat and ballsy), rolled off at about 85Hz if I remember correctly... that alone made a HUGE difference in their sound, it was fatter and clearer. I was shocked! The bass player had an awesome tone dialed in already and it took over right where the guitars left off, sounded so heavy and huge and the vocalist was really pleased that he was able to turn his mic and monitor down and still be able to hear himself (he has bad hearing loss already from listening to and playing at loud volumes, as well as doing lots of work in factories without hearing protection) really clearly. We got mixed results with EQ'ing the mid range (the hardest area to tame in my opinion) but just gave up after about 10 minutes because we were so pleased with what we had, we didn't want to mess anything up. I make all my presets on the AxeFX with a roll off from 100Hz now (or less depending on the guitar, but usually around 80-105Hz) and it sounds so much better live AND when recording. I just keep it as a separate block in the AxeFX from any other EQ blocks I have in there so I can just turn it off if I need to. So far I haven't needed to touch it at a show, the result was always a much better sound with it on and set to 100Hz.

Now of course this is a somewhat isolated event... sort of... but I'm just saying there's a lot more that can be done with our rigs these days. If you run an amp, try an EQ and do something similar, mess with a good EQ pedal and you may be surprised with the results. Heck, there's so much more than just EQ to try out with your live rig!! Compression, reverb, delay, stereo enhancers/expanders, you name it. Right now I'm putting together a list of other ideas I want to try out with the same band, we'll see what comes out.

 

[Davey]

Half the problem is the sheer volume that many metal bands will play at. They crank their amps up super loud in small/medium venues and there's so much sound coming off the stage, combining with what's coming through the PA, that the sound guy can't control the mix properly anymore.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

I honestly think a huge part of it is that people need to start taking tips from recording and mixing.

When I was asked to help with the sound for a friend's rehearsal I was happy to help as I love their band (death metal stuff mostly) and love doing anything involving music. They both had AxeFX's and their bass player was using an Ampeg setup. Typical metal drumkit sound, very tight but still fairly fat sounding. I heard them and they sounded pretty good, then I thought I'd apply some recording knowledge to this and see what would happen. I had both guitar players scoop their bass with a roll off from about 100Hz downward. A bit less on the player who played rhythm more often (for obvious reasons, keeping the sound fat and ballsy), rolled off at about 85Hz if I remember correctly... that alone made a HUGE difference in their sound, it was fatter and clearer. I was shocked! The bass player had an awesome tone dialed in already and it took over right where the guitars left off, sounded so heavy and huge and the vocalist was really pleased that he was able to turn his mic and monitor down and still be able to hear himself (he has bad hearing loss already from listening to and playing at loud volumes, as well as doing lots of work in factories without hearing protection) really clearly. We got mixed results with EQ'ing the mid range (the hardest area to tame in my opinion) but just gave up after about 10 minutes because we were so pleased with what we had, we didn't want to mess anything up. I make all my presets on the AxeFX with a roll off from 100Hz now (or less depending on the guitar, but usually around 80-105Hz) and it sounds so much better live AND when recording. I just keep it as a separate block in the AxeFX from any other EQ blocks I have in there so I can just turn it off if I need to. So far I haven't needed to touch it at a show, the result was always a much better sound with it on and set to 100Hz.

High-pass at 100hz cleans up guitar tone beautifully.

 

[McBonez]

I remember playing a Battle of the Bands type thing about a year ago.

Most of our songs weren't overly techy, and generally carried a pretty straight forward groove to them.

I laughed after reading the judges score cards for things like "lead guitar cut out" and "mix sounded muddy"

Considering we were using pod 2.0's provided by the venue, straight into the board, it was an amusing judgement.

 

[7 Dying Trees]

Tip:

-If you want to hear the best mix, go stand where the sound guy is mixing.

-Don't stand at the dront of stage, the speakers don't cover it, and all you tend to hear is the stage mix. People's stage mixes are odd, and don't contain everything, eg, a wedge mix for guitarist A may have himself, snare and kick with a little bit of guitarist B. Guitarist B has say bass, his guitar and just kick drums.

-Some PA's are crap, and require a lot of EQing by the sound guy, sometimes this eq-ing destroys the guitar sound or another instrument and it becomes hard to get upfront. Not all venues are equal, and you don't have time to re-eq a guitar rig for every venue. Sometimes you change a little bit,. but mainly for a tour you set a sound and that's it

It's not always going to be good unfortunately, but sometimes it is

Also, hearing wise, I suggest moulded earplugs with interchangeable DB filters, as they evenly reduce all the frequencies. Expensive, but they will be moulded to you

 

[Ryan-ZenGtr-]

As a listener
Always wear ear plugs or whatever form of protection you can
-Toilet paper can work. Fold it into a roll, rip it into 4 small, evenly sized pieces, fold again and it should fit your ear well (assuming toilet paper is a standard size internationally, maybe people have bigger **** overseas ).
-Don't be a cheap skate, they are your ONLY pair of ears for a lifetime!
-Move round the venue and find the triangle of projection, between the two main FOH speakers and the middle of the room, then find the nearest place to lean and rest the beers your friends are getting while you conducted reconnaisance.
-As 7DyingTrees said, the room should have been designed with the mix position in, or as near as the buildings construciton will allow, the room's sweet spot. Near there should be the best.

As a musician
-If the sound engineer works at the venue 24/7 he knows his job, the room and the equipment. He's probably burned out and deaf, but knows what he is doing, so have faith!

SE's get a lot of flak in threads like these, but it's a dedication and a performance art too, with a desk as an instrument. Just like musicians, some are better than others.

-Onstage sound is always horrible, at best a compromise, so don't be disappointed, it's NOT what the audience hears. Many players complain about onstage sound, meanwhile the audience raves about the great TONES!

-Soundcheck is crucial, make sure to be alert when the SE is asking for levels in the monitors and that you are clear, precise and polite when you get yours setup. Knowing what you want and the jargon for it is half the battle.

As a sound engineer
I was going to write a section on this, but to be honest SE's are a different breed of human beings than dedicated guitarists. Possibly they're more like bass players mentally, but more different still... Perhaps disturbed, angry bass players, with a bitter streak and a large portion of realism.

They get to watch and observe many players and have a pretty solid perspective on what musicians are all about.

I've done some live sound and engineering and after a while you pretty much want to nuke the planet from orbit. SE's are on a different wave length to guitarists, that's for sure.

Writing down little notes of things to watch out for could be constructive, but lets just say there's a lot of potential for rage associated with being responsible for an evening's sound.

It's usually stuff unrelated to music; people being late or slow to pack away their gear, regular human concerns, although music and personalities can factor into it, but usually trivial concerns take precedence when factoring rage, in my experience.

Anyone remember Slipperman's articles? He expresses Engineer rage pretty explicitly. /

 

[McBonez]

Tip:

-If you want to hear the best mix, go stand where the sound guy is mixing.

Yup. My wife never understands why that's our point of view for a show.

 

[KingAenarion]

Guitar tones with scooped mids really get lost in the mix.

No shit Sherlock

 

[supercolio]

Best sound live?

Stam1na 31.3.2012 @ Finlanida-klubi, Finland.

It sounded just like it did on a record. Fun as hell, too (couldn't turn my head next morning)! About sound levels, I love when they're loud as hell. You can feel the bass going straight through you. Just plug in some plugs and enjoy!

 

[TheEntheogenEgoKiller]

I run sound constantly on a quite large P.A for smaller touring bands all the time. The overall mix will only sound good if the band playing knows how to set their stuff up. I've ran sound at festivals before with tons of bands and sometimes they will sound great and sometimes they sound like absolute shiiiiiiiiiiiiiT no matter how much tweaking on the board is done.

Every time I'm putting guitar mics on cabs I look at the amp settings... More metal guitarists have no clue about tone than other styles of music IMO. It seems like when they are standing on stage and chugging away it sounds good to them when they are standing above the speakers, but at the same time everyone in the crowd is getting killed by a sonic assault of treble.

 

[Kiwimetal101]

I saw august burns red a couple of years ago at a indoor festival, best sounding band due to TURNING THE VOLUME DOWN. not shit loads but enough for everything to have its place in the mix, but the best was part was being able to hear all the guitar parts clearly.

 

[iRaiseTheDead]

Most deathcore bands (at least local) like to turn their bass to 11 because they think its teh br00tz
so that completely kills it for the riffs and shit

 

[SammyKillChambers]

See Meshuggah live. Done.

 

[texshred777]

AAL had the best live sound I've ever heard. Made me a believer in the Axe FX.

When I saw Dream Theater it sounded like garbage. I'm sure it was the venue(Austin Music Hall)-but my best friend said it was the same way at the House of Blues in Dallas. There is an awful lot going on in that mix, though.