What he said. In my experience it's better to think of economy picking as an extension of good alternate picking technique than a technique unto itself.
Speed picking tips??
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What he said. In my experience it's better to think of economy picking as an extension of good alternate picking technique than a technique unto itself.
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Jongpil Yun
Contributor
I'm a strict economy picker. I never saw the point of alternate picking, at all.
I used to think that way, but then I found that there was a serious volume limitation that kept you below a certain 'smack' threshold before you went from proper economy picking to separated downstrokes - which completely defeated the purpose. It's not nearly as easy to pull off good economy picking on an acoustic with heavy strings, alternate picking can be as fast as anyone needs for anything but one note per string arpeggios over five or six strings (listen to Steve Morse if you don't believe me), and often even that, and there's much more dynamic control.
Jeff
Jeff
Funny, I've found the complete reverse. Everyone's hand are built differently, so it's only natural that some people will favour one style over the other. Just because one works, doesn't mean the other doesn't as well.
Why limit yourself? Both have different applications on the guitar.
VERY TRUE!
Funny, I've found the complete reverse. Everyone's hand are built differently, so it's only natural that some people will favour one style over the other. Just because one works, doesn't mean the other doesn't as well.
No, how can you physically avoid the limitation of your picking hand going *too* far after a loud snap and completely destroying the timing of your playing? I'm not saying economy picking doesn't work at all, I'm saying that you have more dynamic range because after every stroke you 'turn around' and come back the other way, rather than depending on continuous movement.
Jeff
Practice. It doesn't happen immediately, but it's perfectly do-able.
Drew
Forum MVP
I remember reading that the last time you posted it here.
It's an EXCELLENT article, but with one caveat - Tuck's a brilliant jazz player, and a very technically accomplished guitarist in his own right, but part of what needs to be understood here is that this article is accordingly not without context. The George Benson style of picking he advocates was developed by a jazz player, and is being championed by a jazz player. It may be a very efficient way of picking, and it's certainly something worth experimenting with, but tonally the tonal benefits he mentions may not be entirely appropriate for, say, an explosive blues solo or a wooly, high-gain shred tone. Still, it gets you thinking about the mechanics of your picking, which is really the ultimate gain here.
And with that in mind, I can't believe I'm abotu to be the first person here to recomment "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar." It's a very comprehensive look at the physical act of playing guitar and focuses on building speed through eliminating restrictions to movement (efficiency, not muscle), and as such is a steal at it's $20 cover price. It may not be life-altering, but it's worth owning.
Santi's dead on, aside from that - relaxing is the best thing you can do for your picking technique.
Finally, speed's overrated - I love Rusty cooley and all, but more often than not the most interesting players I hear are rarely the fastest. Get your phrasing down, and no one will notice how fast your 16th note runs are.
On economy vs. alternate, I'm an alternate picker, myself. I used to be an economy picker, but a guy I was taking lessons from in college, after much cajoling, finally convinced me to give it a shot again, as the picking mechanic sort of serves as its own built-in metronome that helps you lock into a groove for faster picked runs. turns out, he was right.
There's definitely a gain be be had from practicing both, because they definitely steer you towards two different types of phrasing and have two subtly different sounds to them (alternate is very machine gun, economy is a little mroe fluid and legato), but if I had to choose one, and more importantly if I had to recommend one to a beginner to START with, I'd recommend alternate.
I remember reading that the last time you posted it here.
It's an EXCELLENT article, but with one caveat - Tuck's a brilliant jazz player, and a very technically accomplished guitarist in his own right, but part of what needs to be understood here is that this article is accordingly not without context. The George Benson style of picking he advocates was developed by a jazz player, and is being championed by a jazz player. It may be a very efficient way of picking, and it's certainly something worth experimenting with, but tonally the tonal benefits he mentions may not be entirely appropriate for, say, an explosive blues solo or a wooly, high-gain shred tone. Still, it gets you thinking about the mechanics of your picking, which is really the ultimate gain here.
And with that in mind, I can't believe I'm abotu to be the first person here to recomment "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar." It's a very comprehensive look at the physical act of playing guitar and focuses on building speed through eliminating restrictions to movement (efficiency, not muscle), and as such is a steal at it's $20 cover price. It may not be life-altering, but it's worth owning.
Santi's dead on, aside from that - relaxing is the best thing you can do for your picking technique.
Finally, speed's overrated - I love Rusty cooley and all, but more often than not the most interesting players I hear are rarely the fastest. Get your phrasing down, and no one will notice how fast your 16th note runs are.
On economy vs. alternate, I'm an alternate picker, myself. I used to be an economy picker, but a guy I was taking lessons from in college, after much cajoling, finally convinced me to give it a shot again, as the picking mechanic sort of serves as its own built-in metronome that helps you lock into a groove for faster picked runs. turns out, he was right.
There's definitely a gain be be had from practicing both, because they definitely steer you towards two different types of phrasing and have two subtly different sounds to them (alternate is very machine gun, economy is a little mroe fluid and legato), but if I had to choose one, and more importantly if I had to recommend one to a beginner to START with, I'd recommend alternate.
Agree with everything here.Incidentally, the Benson style is virtually identical to Shawn Lane's picking technique, so it's clearly pretty versatile. I've tried angling the pick that way, but for me it made sweeping virtually impossible, although cross-picking got a little easier, so I've stuck with my regular pick grip.
Drew, I'm suprised that you haven't noticed I end up recommending 'Speed Mechanics...' in every other thread on this section of the boards (that and 'Creative Guitar')...
You're right about the tonal aspect, but even that can vary from player to player. For instance, Chris Poland is primarily an alternate picker, yet his playing still sounds extremely legato. Conversely, Tom Hess is all strict economy picking, yet he's still capable of peeling off some pretty aggressive sounding runs.
Thanks! It is truely the best "Key" to understanding picking. I will be covering a lot of picking stuff in my next CFH DVD.
I think personaly the elbow is like using a BAZOOKA to do Surgery...
I would prefer the wrist and small twich muscles in forearem + small joint muscles in thumb.
Seems more economical & effecient.
Small twich fibers are FAST AS HELL! you just have to get in "tune:" with them through relaxation..
Look at BRUCE LEE's Jik Chun Choy punches or "straight Blast"...
very Economical punching and you can punch in one second 5 to 10 hits!
That is achieved through slow training of relaxed movement and "SLOWLY" relaxing into the higher speeds.
Alternate trains your wrist and small fibers in your forearm,
Economy trains the "thumb" if you can put the two mechanisms together in your alternate you will "FLY".
For fast economy just work the "Thumb" circular movement.
LEARN BOTH....
Finally, speed's overrated - I love Rusty cooley and all, but more often than not the most interesting players I hear are rarely the fastest. Get your phrasing down, and no one will notice how fast your 16th note runs are.
I agree also its how you use it... It should lead into or from a phrase....
if you can for example throw it in a slow tempo but at a 32 not division you will get a very " in the Pocket" sound.
Listen to Garsed's legato and try to make your picking that....
Or listen to Nuno Bettencourt when he "Speed" picks...
Gilbert uses more phrases that are triplets or 16note triplests (6 notes per beat)...nothing wrong with that however if you use 8 note per beat like Nuno or Maclaughlin you will "sound" faster than what is really happening.
It will also fit better in the pocket, the snare hit becomes the "click" when you are traveling at 8 notes per beat in a 4/4.
Also listen to drummers who do sick fast double bass and emulate their skill with your picking ( Dere Roddy, Sean Reinert, Gene Hogland, Giann Rubio, John L. from Origin, Flow Mounier.)
YouTube - Drum Solo Pay attention to Derek's feet and emulate that with picking. Derek Is SOOOOOO EFFECIENT on drums and economical he does not uses his WHOLE leg to double bass its all in his feet, ankle and small twitch fibers.
And he can play like that for HOURS.....
That is what you need to achieve in the hand and wrist and thumb..elbow is too much in my opinion. Notice how his double bass is not produced from HUGE leg movements....
That would be the equivolent of using your ELBOw.
Peace
Bust a nut with the metronome daily and whoop some ass!
Santiago
Drew
Forum MVP
Hey, I kinda LIKE using a bazooka for surgery - my dad's got this half-tongue-in-cheek saying; "Amputate first, X-ray later." 
Can you show a clip of the dynamic range you get? I practiced all of that constantly for about a year straight and always found that there was some point where it wasn't possible to hit the string hard enough and still have proper timing. I should note that I play with about 28 pounds of tension on each string on my main guitar and play it so that unplugged it's around speech volume.
Jeff
Drew
Forum MVP
Dynamic range =/= volume. If you're hitting hard enough to play unplugged at speaking level, you either talk very quietly or hit very hard, or both. And to be fair, I'm softspoken, heavy handed, and I even generally talk louder than I play.
If sheer volume is your concern and you don't think economy picking gives you the same volume, that's fine, but calling it dynamic "range" isn't entirely accurate, as that speaks more to the differences between loudest and softest.
Hey, I kinda LIKE using a bazooka for surgery - my dad's got this half-tongue-in-cheek saying; "Amputate first, X-ray later."
Oh well...I believe in a more "Preventative Measure"...
But hey whatever works for you.
Drew
Forum MVP
I'm joking, dude. 
My dad's a doctor, and a very cynical one at that. I've inherited a lot of that from him. Well, maybe not the doctor part. I don't talk quietly, but I hit hard enough apparently. I can call it dynamic range because I can easily play as quietly as anyone else; if one end of the range is fixed, the other one must vary in order for the range to vary, so considering I can go as quietly as anyone can (practically speaking, not talking about breathing at the strings obviously) the only way to go is up.
Jeff
Jongpil Yun
Contributor
As far as I can see, Shawn Lane's picking is more of just standard variation 2 with the pick angled slightly the reverse direction, as opposed to Benson's perpendicular pick. Actually I do it kind of the same way. Anyways, it has the added advantage of allowing easy access to the vibrato bar while picking.
Also, people say speed is overrated, but there's plenty of baroque music (not to mention Lane's stuff) that hits all-out shred pace.
Also, people say speed is overrated, but there's plenty of baroque music (not to mention Lane's stuff) that hits all-out shred pace.
Unfortunately, not at the moment, as my recording stuff's at my parents' house, and the only guitar I've got with me is my classical...
No rush, I'd just like to see how far it goes because if I can start getting the same 'pop' in economy that I get in alternate I might start using it more often.
Jeff
Jeff
