SSO: Deep Thoughts

[wheresthefbomb]

Free market, is that like when I steal from wal mart?

 

[TedEH]

I think I might also be approaching a point of needing an internet break for a while. I get far too sucked into things, and the overwhelming awfulness that comes out of the woodworks is.... kinda insane. At some point I picked up reddit again, and I keep stumbling into these rabbit holes where desperate folks will post asking for serious advice, and will get overwhelming life-ruining-ly awful advice. Every "boundary" is valid regardless of circumstances. Every argument must be resolved by going no-contact. The solution to anything physical is always retaliation. All conflict must assign blame. The OP would never lie.

 

[MFB]

I think I might also be approaching a point of needing an internet break for a while. I get far too sucked into things, and the overwhelming awfulness that comes out of the woodworks is.... kinda insane. At some point I picked up reddit again, and I keep stumbling into these rabbit holes where desperate folks will post asking for serious advice, and will get overwhelming life-ruining-ly awful advice. Every "boundary" is valid regardless of circumstances. Every argument must be resolved by going no-contact. The solution to anything physical is always retaliation. All conflict must assign blame. The OP would never lie.

Just operate under the assumption that if it's a post on popular asking if they were "wrong" or "the asshole" that it's just outright rage-bait/bot-posting and not a human person

 

[TedEH]

A lot of times it's not the OP itself that bothers me, it's the responses. Even if the post is rage-bait or bots or otherwise faked, people are still responding to the hypothetical.

 

[nightflameauto]

I'm beginning to wish we had to have a license to participate in online conversations. Like, some sort of proof of mental stability, or the ability to see, read, or hear something you disagree with without turning into a raging lunatic. Because at this point once the lunatics start to take over any conversation, the rational and engaging people tend to just disappear, leaving the impression that the lunatics are the entire picture.

Kinda like modern politics. Ugh.

 

[Briz]

Free market, is that like when I steal from wal mart?

That's when I, or a small business (let's say), offer goods for sale and you agree to purchase said goods. Crony capitalism is far different. If you've used reverb, bought from a small business, used ebay, that's a simplified example of free markets. You choose if if you want to buy at the stated price, or purchase from another source, or not at all. Lobbyists controlling markets through political contributions is antithetical to free markets, for example. Crony capitalism =/= free markets.

 

[TedEH]

Reverb and Ebay are both really common examples of how "free markets" can go awry when you can squeeze people by playing with market forces. Sure, you're "free" from cronyism, but instead you're at the whim of whoever happens to hold more power in the transaction. You're also "free" from anything that could prevent power imbalances. Does it work just fine when the price of certain gear becomes unobtainable because scarcity or rarity means sellers can make a killing? Does it work just fine when, say, a grocery store can do the same thing? Does it work just fine when people are incentivized to scoop up the limited stock of a new product to scalp it at several times the original value? Does it work just fine when whole industries are laying off workers in droves despite making record profits?

 

[Briz]

Reverb and Ebay are both really common examples of how "free markets" can go awry when you can squeeze people by playing with market forces. Sure, you're "free" from cronyism, but instead you're at the whim of whoever happens to hold more power in the transaction. You're also "free" from anything that could prevent power imbalances. Does it work just fine when the price of certain gear becomes unobtainable because scarcity or rarity means sellers can make a killing? Does it work just fine when, say, a grocery store can do the same thing? Does it work just fine when people are incentivized to scoop up the limited stock of a new product to scalp it at several times the original value? Does it work just fine when whole industries are laying off workers in droves despite making record profits?

That's a lot of conjecture and conflating of different economic models and markets, TBH. There are far more variables and I think you know that. You don't have to buy a guitar at a dumb price. You do, however, have to eat. What's the average profit margin on grocery items? I have 3 guitars I'm watching on reverb, all below market price. How are grocery stores impacted by supply chains, logistics, fuel costs? You've introduced a completely different subset of variables into free markets vs crony capitalism. The premise and facts are still the same - they are completely different.

 

[TedEH]

You don't have to buy a guitar at a dumb price.

But in a free market, I still don't get to set the price. If that's the only price available, the only alternative is not to buy it. That's not "fair". That's not "working". That's just upholding a divide between haves and have-nots. "Poor people don't get to have nice things" is the kind of value that system upholds. Sometimes it extends as far as "poor people don't get to have things at all."

You do, however, have to eat. What's the average profit margin on grocery items?

Loblaws, in Canada (I think it's our largest chain?) saw growth in the last few years in the hundreds of millions. Something like 500 million to 600 million over one quarter, I forget the numbers. They're also one of those shitty employers that give people minimum wage shift work, as I understand it. Do I know the exact profit margin? Nope. Not a clue. But it's enough to rake in $600 million profit in three months. This was happening while grocery prices were experiencing the worst inflation we've seen in that area in something like 30-40 years. If you think grocery stores aren't profitable, or are just scraping by with minimal margins, you are wildly off the mark.

How are grocery stores impacted by supply chains, logistics, fuel costs? You've introduced a completely different subset of variables into free markets vs crony capitalism.

Every business, no matter how free or crony you think it is, is going to be under the influence of whatever factors go into running the business. Is that not the whole spirit of a free market? That it's left to its devices, and is regulated only by invisible forces like competition and logistics? That's what a free market IS. How do you propose a grocery store should operate without a supply chain?

 

[Briz]

But in a free market, I still don't get to set the price. If that's the only price available, the only alternative is not to buy it. That's not "fair". That's not "working". That's just upholding a divide between haves and have-nots. "Poor people don't get to have nice things" is the kind of value that system upholds. Sometimes it extends as far as "poor people don't get to have things at all."


Loblaws, in Canada (I think it's our largest chain?) saw growth in the last few years in the hundreds of millions. Something like 500 million to 600 million over one quarter, I forget the numbers. They're also one of those shitty employers that give people minimum wage shift work, as I understand it. Do I know the exact profit margin? Nope. Not a clue. But it's enough to rake in $600 million profit in three months. This was happening while grocery prices were experiencing the worst inflation we've seen in that area in something like 30-40 years. If you think grocery stores aren't profitable, or are just scraping by with minimal margins, you are wildly off the mark.


Every business, no matter how free or crony you think it is, is going to be under the influence of whatever factors go into running the business. Is that not the whole spirit of a free market? That it's left to its devices, and is regulated only by invisible forces like competition and logistics? That's what a free market IS. How do you propose a grocery store should operate without a supply chain?

Again, simply put, a free market is not the same as crony capitalism. They're antithetical. I think the answers to the questions above are freely available information. A grocery store operates on 1% - 3% margin, for example. The factors that are driving inflation and supply chain issues, e.g. quantitative easing, higher gas prices, are irrelevant to the differentiation between a free market and, for example, lobbyists influencing markets through donating or withholding funds to shape markets and drive profits, which is one example of crony capitalism.

 

[TedEH]

$600 million dollars. Not revenue. Profit. Looking at the margin is a distraction when you're talking about that much in three months. Lowblaws in particular was under fire for this because some of these record high earnings happened during the lockdowns, in tandem with the whole shrink-flation thing. Where is the "cronyism" in this? It didn't happen because of some kind of cozying up to the government, it didn't happen because of lobying, it happened because the "free market" incentivizes taking advantage of power imbalances. It happened because there's no rule to stop companies from charging more for less, for something as essential as food, during a crisis.

"What's this, everyone is stocking up because of lockdown? Better shrink portion sizes and jack up prices!" says the free market. It's just supply and demand, after all.

 

[Briz]

What causes shrinkflation? What causes inflation? What is the impact of printing money to finance debt? Seriously, are you really arguing that free markets and crony capitalism are the same?

What's your solution? Buyeverythinghere.gov? The same institution that incentivizes rampamt spending and can't pass an audit?

Is your issue with free market entrepreneurial profit? Should everything be free?

Stay with the point. The intention of free markets is not synonymous with crony capitalism. Seriously, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. You're describing the bastardization of the original intent of free markets, which is crony capitalism. Incentivizing certain businesses and enterprises, while regulating others, is your point, right? Who passes the legislation and why? For every mega corp there are thousands of small businesses.

If you think cozying up to the government and lobbying isn't a major variable in the crony capitalism racket, I really can't take you seriously. How did the military industrial complex come about? How does Google and Microsoft thrive? Are you denying government favoritism to specific companies and conglomerates? Do you even know what pork and earmarks are in federal budgets? Who lobbies for those funds? Who receives them.

TLDR - Free Markets are not crony capitalism.

 

[wheresthefbomb]

So like when I steal from wal mart?

 

[TedEH]

Seriously, are you really arguing that free markets and crony capitalism are the same?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you've attributed things to crony capitalism that have zero to do with crony capitalism. It's just plain old regular capitalism. You added the crony part in. I have claimed zero things to be cronyism.

Is your issue with free market entrepreneurial profit?

No.

Should everything be free?

Maybe! But lets not go there.

You're describing the bastardization of the original intent of free markets, which is crony capitalism.

No, what I'm describing is that crony capitalism is a specific thing: lobbying and using government connections to get a leg up in otherwise-regular capitalism, but free markets are not free from perverse incentives. I'm saying that a free market has baked in incentives, because capitalism, as a whole, has baked in incentives. Free and Crony are not equivalent, but they are not opposites. You could remove all the cronies, and capitalism would still have major problems.

 

[Briz]

How is a free market, where you choose to buy, sell, or barter for goods, inherently flawed unless there's a lack of competition, or crippling regulations? Free markets drive innovation and, historically, lower costs. It's a free exchange, with ample alternatives. Crony capitalism rigs and regulates quid pro quo - the epitome of greed and power - to tilt the scales in favor of a lobbyist group, donors, or powerful elite groups, for example. Free markets and crony capitalism are not, in any way, connected in their true forms.

We're talking about the true intent of each. Given that crony capitalism is so intertwined with our economic decisions, one only experiences free markets, for the most part, when dealing with competing startups, disruptors, small businesses, cost leaders (some product differentiators), or even a farmer's market, for example. Intent and design should be separated from the current mess you're alluding to. We're talking the truest form of the definition of each. We can't redefine two completely different economic models' definitions simply because the current economic models employed are rife with corruption.

Again, I ask why are some companies crushed by regulations and others skirt those rules? A few of many answers are verifiable and 100% fact: lobbyists, dark money, quid pro quo, and plain old bribery. Mega corp wants the market share. How do they accomplish that? One way is lobbyists' money in return for said regulations. That's one of the differences and inherent immorality you usually won't find in a truly free market. Yet, crony capitalism can be found in every pork filled federal budget. There's a reason even the most noble bills and budgets get pushback. There's always a portion of the budget or bill that has zero relevance to the issue at hand, designed to appease a lobbyist group. I'm sorry, but this is common knowledge.

How do the Koch Brothers always seem to get what they want? How do the Pelosi's outperform the greatest investors on earth? Contrast that with this: Why is produce significantly cheaper at every farmer's market? Why do I have to choose between Android or iOS? Why are there countless pharmaceuticals bought and mothballed by big pharma? In one system, competition is minimized. Novel ideas that aim to disrupt are crushed. In the other system, choice and free exchange of goods and services provide consumers options from which to choose, at a price they're willing to pay - competition ensures this, in most cases.

Edit: If "maybe" everything should be free, that means one thing: slave labor. We should be compensated for our work.

 

[BlackMastodon]

ITT:

 

[Briz]

ITT:

Agreed. What say you @TedEH? Agree to disagree and chalk it up to a good discourse and diversity of thought?

 

[Seabeast2000]

Would anyone like some pannnnncakes?

 

[nightflameauto]

Got a compliment this week. My first in, let's see, carry the three, uh, fuck it, a long time. And it was actually over something that I give a damn about. Amazing how much of a spirit lifter a simple, but truly sincere, compliment can be.

Which led to this discussion with a coworker where he popped off this gem of a deep thought:
"Men get so few compliments that when we get one it's like manna from heaven. Hell, I'm still high off the compliment I got about my tattoos out in the plant like two years ago."

That's brutally true though. I'll probably be sailing off this compliment for weeks, if not months.

 

[TedEH]

Edit: If "maybe" everything should be free, that means one thing: slave labor. We should be compensated for our work.

The longer this thread goes on, the more I think we really should embrace communism. From each according to his ability and to each according to his need, etc etc. Can't have crony capitalism if you have no capitalism.