Stereo LIVE Guitars + IEM

[UltimaWeapon]

Hi. We have a summer break from gigging right now and wanted to upgrade our rack live system for proper stereo.
The last few gigs we have decided that we need to switch panoramas during live shows because when the Solo hits it stays on one side and it sounds empty (dull), also the same problem with the cleans.
We want to be set L and R but when the solo comes in the solo should switch to the middle with the rhytms... the catch is we have stereo IEM so while we are monitoring ourselves the in ear mix should stay all the time in the center.
How is this possible to achieve? Or route?
I personally use Helix Lt and my co-guitar player FM3. running through a splitter into a behringer X32 and into our IEM. My first thought would be to use 2 xlrs as stereo which would go into our splitter and then into our mixer and then 2 line (jack cables) into another patchbay or splitter which would go into our in ears and do presets on both units where only the XLRs would change the L+R sides while the Jack Outpurs would stay in center...
If you have any other idea or experience to share it would be awesome!!!

 

[Dommak89]

Interesting! I've had similar thoughts for our band in mind. I've gathered a little bit of info, but only Kemper related. But maybe that helps.

You can run 2 XLRs from the Kemper to your X32 to be able to work with Stereo. For every RIG (Amp + Cab + Effects) you can either chose mono or Stereo. So when switching RIGs on stage you can switch from Mono to Stereo. After that it gets blurry for me as well, so I'm excited to see what other answers you get.

My thought process is: If you start in mono, you would have one channel that does not deliver any sound unless you turn it to Stereo in which case both channels would have an output. If these channels are panned left and right by your FOH you should get Stereo sound as soon as you change your RIG (presuming this works similar with your FX devices).

 

[UltimaWeapon]

Interesting! I've had similar thoughts for our band in mind. I've gathered a little bit of info, but only Kemper related. But maybe that helps.

You can run 2 XLRs from the Kemper to your X32 to be able to work with Stereo. For every RIG (Amp + Cab + Effects) you can either chose mono or Stereo. So when switching RIGs on stage you can switch from Mono to Stereo. After that it gets blurry for me as well, so I'm excited to see what other answers you get.

My thought process is: If you start in mono, you would have one channel that does not deliver any sound unless you turn it to Stereo in which case both channels would have an output. If these channels are panned left and right by your FOH you should get Stereo sound as soon as you change your RIG (presuming this works similar with your FX devices).

I need to check this on the Helix and FM3... thanks for the idea.
My initial idea was to run 2xlrs from each multifx to the splitter. The FOH guy would get 4 cables for guitars L + R x2. From both units the 1/4 outputs would go directly to the X32s AUX in inputs. And creating presets with different output settings on the Helix or FM3.
The downside of this is that You need to run 4 cables from the unit and the second thing that Helix is limited to 2 paths... so each path would need the same copy but at the end of the chain activating different output settings.
My second idea was to run 2xlrs to the splitter which would have always Stereo sound. And controlling the patchbay which feeds the signal for the FOH guy but switching the outputs on/off via midi or something...

 

[LostTheTone]

I "think" that you can solve most of your problems just by controlling your mixer.

So; you have two guitars in stereo, and they each have 2 input channels each in the mixer, right? You can control how stereo channels are panned out already, and you can save scenes, then recall via midi, or control through the software. So, on that end you can just set your panoramas how you like for all your output channels, save them as scenes and just recall them when you need to change. You just treat your outs to the FoH the same as the monitor channels; pan the inputs in your scenes, save and recall.

That isn't necessarily an easy thing to do, but in principal you can see how it would work. Once the scenes are set up, you just need to have a reasonable way to recall them. Your modellers may not be able to send arbitrary midi messages, but if you want to go with this sort of approach then we can have a chat about how best to set it up and whether you need an extra controller. Personally I have a Morningstar foot controller, so I would just use that to recall patches and mixer scene, and not directly press buttons on your modellers at all. It depends on exactly what you have in your modellers and whether you have other midi capable things already plumbed in.

Doing it this way you don't need to worry about what your modellers can or can't do - Just set all your patches as stereo, even the ones that don't need it, and use the scenes to get your pan and volumes correct.

Yes, you do need to run 4 XLRs - Invest in a big, long XLR loom. But they really aren't that expensive, and it's at least a somewhat elegant solution. Colour code your inputs and outputs so it's easy to hook up, properly label your outs for the FoH guy, and you're good to go on that front.

Your real issue here is going to be getting the FoH to work with you, and sound checking. Really all you need to do is convince them is to have 2 channels per guitar, set them identically, and then not touch the faders at all, and let you control via your mixer. They may not like that. But that's what they need to do. To make them more inclined to work with you, have something ready to sound check that will let you quickly click through the various modes fairly quickly, so they can see that you aren't going to mess up the volumes and break the PA.

 

[UltimaWeapon]

I "think" that you can solve most of your problems just by controlling your mixer.

So; you have two guitars in stereo, and they each have 2 input channels each in the mixer, right? You can control how stereo channels are panned out already, and you can save scenes, then recall via midi, or control through the software. So, on that end you can just set your panoramas how you like for all your output channels, save them as scenes and just recall them when you need to change. You just treat your outs to the FoH the same as the monitor channels; pan the inputs in your scenes, save and recall.

That isn't necessarily an easy thing to do, but in principal you can see how it would work. Once the scenes are set up, you just need to have a reasonable way to recall them. Your modellers may not be able to send arbitrary midi messages, but if you want to go with this sort of approach then we can have a chat about how best to set it up and whether you need an extra controller. Personally I have a Morningstar foot controller, so I would just use that to recall patches and mixer scene, and not directly press buttons on your modellers at all. It depends on exactly what you have in your modellers and whether you have other midi capable things already plumbed in.

Doing it this way you don't need to worry about what your modellers can or can't do - Just set all your patches as stereo, even the ones that don't need it, and use the scenes to get your pan and volumes correct.

Yes, you do need to run 4 XLRs - Invest in a big, long XLR loom. But they really aren't that expensive, and it's at least a somewhat elegant solution. Colour code your inputs and outputs so it's easy to hook up, properly label your outs for the FoH guy, and you're good to go on that front.

Your real issue here is going to be getting the FoH to work with you, and sound checking. Really all you need to do is convince them is to have 2 channels per guitar, set them identically, and then not touch the faders at all, and let you control via your mixer. They may not like that. But that's what they need to do. To make them more inclined to work with you, have something ready to sound check that will let you quickly click through the various modes fairly quickly, so they can see that you aren't going to mess up the volumes and break the PA.

Actually this isnt a bad idea maybe. Need to figure out how to turn on/off the channel on the X32 via midi and route a direct raw signal to the FOH guy not from the splitter but from the mixer itself. Thats genius! Thanks for the idea man!
Our main routing is going always through the splitter and we split everything for the FOH guy to leave him the full control of our vox, samples, instruments etc unaffected, unEQd and raw as possible.

 

[LostTheTone]

Actually this isnt a bad idea maybe. Need to figure out how to turn on/off the channel on the X32 via midi and route a direct raw signal to the FOH guy not from the splitter but from the mixer itself. Thats genius! Thanks for the idea man!
Our main routing is going always through the splitter and we split everything for the FOH guy to leave him the full control of our vox, samples, instruments etc unaffected, unEQd and raw as possible.

It's pretty much how I run my set-up for the stage. I only have an XR12 mixer (I was the only one in my old band who used IEMs) but I never had a problem running things into the mixer then back out to FoH. You do have to be a little bit careful with mics, because you can end up with nasty gainstaging and feedback, but even then I never had a problem. I had to do some lateral thinking to get all the inputs and outputs in my rack case working rights. I have a PC which is the brains of the operation, doing guitar modelling, vocal effects, samples and IR/cab sim for other people's guitars depending on how I have to take them. Then shoots back out of the PC into the XR12, and the XR12 to PA and stage monitors and my IEMs. And it's a huge mess of cables but it does work.

I haven't looked at the X32 in any depth, but at least on my mixer for any send you can choose which point in the signal chain it comes from - So I can make a send that is just straight form the input, pre-EQ, post-EQ whatever. I think for you if you set up each guitar input as two mono channels, make the send to each output as "input", then you just use the faders on each mono output to create your pan and volume. That's slightly less intuitive than having an L/R balance knob, but it'll mean you are complete in control of what you are sending to the board just from those faders. Balance knobs put you in annoying situations where you have your L at the right volume, and need R to be a bit louder but keeping L where it is.

For doing midi control, IIRC the X32 only does scene changes (which is all you need anyway) which is actually a blessing because the XR12 is HORRIBLE to try and control directly via midi. For mixing and set up I just have a cheap, old tablet that I can connect up to it. My rack actually has a mini wireless router in it (since there's a PC in there anyway) which handles the wireless for my mixer, and yours should be able to do the same thing.

I got to this point, where my 6u rack is a brick of technology, basically by just solving each problem separately and slowly growing upwards. None of the individual problems are actually challenging, and once you lose the idea that one magic thing can solve everything, and start looking for small ways to fix simple things, it starts to work but it does get a bit ungainly over time.