Technological Unemployment...the recession...MONEY...the future...arrrghhhh!

[chimp_spanner]

Okay so it's probably quite old news by now but I finally got around to watching Zeitgeist Addendum the other night, as well as a newer "Orientation" movie posted in March of this year to cover the more recent developments with the recession. And I felt like rambling, and asking a few questions.

I won't talk too much about the film as it really needs its own thread and I'm sure one of those already exists! I'll say I agreed with about 80% of it. Not so keen on the religious aspect only because it felt glossed over, but that's for another discussion. But one thing jumped out at me in the Orientation film; technological unemployment. It's not a new concept, but I never fully understood where it's likely to lead. I just saw it as "one of those things". And for me it really underlines how perverse our application of technology has become and is a symptom of a far more serious social illness.

We're a society obsessed with improving technology. We're also obsessed with making profit - it's not only acceptable but it's required/demanded. We find unemployment socially unacceptable, yet making profit demands efficiency, which ultimately demands redundancies when technology can fulfill a human role...which surely can only lead to a reduction in profit again when there are fewer people able to afford to consume?!

Now take this idea and put it into the context of a global economic contraction...the need to automate and cut cost becomes so much greater.

I just wonder where the hell this is all going? I'm no business man or economist. I've never had much faith in the capitalist way, or the monetary system. I see it as unbalanced and unfair (probably because I don't have a lot of money ) but like most people I've always assumed it's too self serving to allow itself to fail.

But I'm beginning to think that the system is now incapable of fixing, or sustaining itself. It's engineered its own demise. Even if we claw our way out of this recession, we'll likely see another one or two even worse within our lifetime. Hell, this will be the second I've seen in the UK and I'm only 25.

Worse still, there are a small number of individuals and corporate entities for whom this system, as broken as it is, works perfectly fine and they'll fight tooth and nail to keep things as they are at the expense of the greater good.

So I guess my question is...where next? We're running out of new industries/sectors to absorb the job losses. Debt is at such a level that our countries do not possess nor earn enough money to ever pay it off, and if we did...it would ruin the financial system because the 'wealth' we do have, is trapped in said-debt! And I'm not even touching wars, or the environment

Ya know when the banks started closing, and the economy began contracting...I wished so damn hard that it would just run its course, painful as it would be. A system that has, in a lot of ways, harmed society finally showed itself to be unsustainable and self defeating. Yet we propped it up. Its GOT to reach a point where it's just...bad for everyone. And I think we're almost there.

So how long until we see real change? How long do we think it'll take? The way I see it, our desire to progress is in direct opposition to our desire to profit. We can't have both. As to which we'll choose...

PS - not suggesting I have answers myself. Just want to know what people think.

 

[cataclysm_child]

I´ve seen a couple of those videos and in one of them a guy explained how it was possible with todays technology to build a community where no one have to work and everything is free. It´s quite some time ago I saw it, so I don´t really remember how that worked, but it was interesting for sure.

 

[chimp_spanner]

Yeah I think it was called the Venus project. A large part of it was sustainable and clean energy. The real kicker for me was that I got the impression that we could achieve this now. They factored in all known sources of naturally ocurring energy, and it's more than enough for the whole planet. But there's no profit in something that is in abundance...so we don't do it.

I mean, I've not seen one good reason why we haven't built solar/wind/tidal/wave collectors at every possible viable spot. Even bound by money, yes the initial cost would be huge (although IMO it's a cause that should transcend cost but, ho-hum). But think of all the money we'd save if we didn't have to fight to control oil! Billions...trillions of dollars/pounds. It's in the interest of 99% of us that we do it. It's in the interest of 1% that we don't. The 1% prevails.

 

[daveycrockett]

I´ve seen a couple of those videos and in one of them a guy explained how it was possible with todays technology to build a community where no one have to work and everything is free. It´s quite some time ago I saw it, so I don´t really remember how that worked, but it was interesting for sure.

his name is Jacque Fresco and he's the man look him up! watch everything on him, read his essays @ The Venus Project

also there's another movie called Kymatica

so what now.... i think enough of us the people have to know whats actually happening and know that our best interests are not being considered, and decide as one that this can't continue...not an easy thing but the good thing is that right now A LOT of people are waking up, so get involved. Now that doesn't mean we all have to protest or be involved that way (though we should be ready to) but just keep spreading the word to friends and family that you think will be receptive.

my you tube channel tons of this stuff here^-^

sorry for the long reply I just feel strongly about this stuff
peace

 

[The Atomic Ass]

It's in the interest of 99% of us that we do it. It's in the interest of 1% that we don't. The 1% prevails.

0.01%, would be closer to the truth.

 

[ToniS]

I agree, this whole system has to change, but it's just sad to see that the big guys are just feeding it more and more. That way we will have another recession, and another after that and so on.

 

[damigu]

i'm going to play a bit of devils advocate here:

are you sure you're not just being pessimistic? maybe it isn't "we keep having cycles of recession" but rather "we keep having cycled of boons."
(is the cup half empty, or is it half full?)
i can't speak for other countries, but i know that every significant recession in american history was followed by expansion and exploration into new industries with great financial gains (usually the financial gains ended up higher on average than even the good times prior to the recession).
and then people begin speculating on those new industries in ways that the finances/industries/economies can't actually sustain (trading on ideas and assumptions instead of actual results), and then the whole thing goes into a new recession. but then something new/different (occasionally better, but not always) comes along and propels everything forward out of the recession again.

as for solar/wind/tidal/wave collectors, they're ugly and inefficient. those are the two best arguments against them.
they are good in that they can help reduce the amount of dependency on coal in the short run, but in the long run they are transitional and supplemental means of energy production at best.
what we need to do is get rid of the red tape, resolve the waste issue, and allow nuclear energy again. it really is the only way to relatively cleanly produce the amount of power we crave while minimizing waste.
solar/wind/wave/tidal energy can be used to supplement nuclear, but they are nowhere near enough in and of themselves.
they aren't worth such a huge pour of resources. nuclear is.

 

[MF_Kitten]

the problem with these solutions and all, is that it´s not as easy when it comes down to actually doing it. things might look perfectly reasonable on paper, when it´s just a theory, but there are always nooks and crannies that make it hard to accomplish.

and there is no doubt that the current system is effed in the aye, it needs to be changed drastically. i know i´ll sound like a douche for saying this, but i think many countries could learn a thing or two from norway. we have a pretty good balance between market-driven and state-driven economy. like, hospitals are state-driven instead of private, but certain things, like x-rays and stuff are privately owned (yet the state pays for it). things are only outsourced if it´s needed.

that´s not really about the economy, but the big picture here is that we have a smaller focus on paying private companies for everything, and a bigger focus on giving the people what they need, and leaving private companies for ordinary consumer goods.

so since i have no idea about anything that has to do with global economy, i´m probably waaay off the mark here, babbling on about unrelated crap, right?

WE ALL NEED TO START SAVING AND LIVING CONSERVATIVELY! CONSERVE ELECTRICITY, EAT CANNED BEANS, AND FOR THOSE OF YOU IN DROUGHT-PRONE COUNTRIES, USE WATER SUPER EFFICIENTLY!

 

[damigu]

^^ i agree absolutely.

the problem is that most of the rest of the world freaks out at the thought of socializing anything. like the current debate in america over socialized medicine. for some reason, people still think of socialism as the USSR.

personally, i find nothing wrong with picking and choosing the most functional part of each system and combining them. the focus should be on the well being, quality of life, and standard of living for the nations individuals, and not on the profitability of corporations.

 

[MF_Kitten]

yeah, it seems people are obsessed with the ideas and backgrounds of everything, instead of the effect it has when used. like "OMG THATS WHAT STALIN WOULD DO!"... well, what if it´s the best fucking idea in the universe, and would fix everything? then what does it matter if stalin had that same idea once? it´s not like your country will be communist the instant that happens...

i know the case in america is the whole "socialized" thing. like that´s a bad thing?

 

[Scar Symmetry]

i think many countries could learn a thing or two from norway.

and Switerzland, Sweden, Japan and Germany.

I know when I think about the way my country does things, and the way their countries do things, I wonder why we don't take little leaves out of their books.

 

[MF_Kitten]

...and denmark, btw

 

[Scar Symmetry]

pff all Denmark do is make blue cheese and good bacon

 

[MF_Kitten]

they have a relaxed stance on everything, yet they banned the use of trans fats in food. the result? heart attack rates dropped by 20%. imagine the relief that would´ve caused if they banned it in the US, or even the UK. many lives saved, as well as lots of money that would otherwise have been used taking care of them.

 

[Cancer]

There is so much I want to comment on in this thread, it'll take me days to do it all but I will say this, Jacque Fresco is a genius and I agree with everything he said in the Zeitgeist...

HOWEVER....

The Venus Project has IMO, one fatal flaw, there is no path to get there from here. Even Fresco can be quoted as saying that in order for a resource based economy to succeed "society has to fail"....

Everytime I hear that, I think mushrooms clouds, which is NOT the way to go, in order for Fresco's society to work, we need the technology we have now, and need to continue to build on it into the future.

For months I've been sitting on plan that will connect where we are now, to at least the bdginnings of the society Fresco envisioned. It can be done NOW, with the technology we have NOW.

 

[Scar Symmetry]

where's Jeff?

would've thought he'd been all over this.

 

[mikernaut]

The disturbing trend I have witnessed is... companies are soo obssessed with sales figures and chasing the $. That the quality of the product is drastically compromised and even flawed.
Also the bad planning and management behind the scenes doesn't help either.

Then there's the "old boys club" scenario. Since they have been at the company for awhile they are dug in and often friends with the owners and each other and climbed the ladder to gain their positions of power. Some have become out of touch with what makes their product good or cool/relevant.

These out of touch types become over protective and very insecure and scared of change or constructive criticism. Then they screw over the newer hardworking people that want to make a better more creative product to protect themselves from looking bad infront of their other peers in power . Eventually things get bad with the economy or the companies profits (since they are now pushing out a mediocre product) Guess who gets laid off?
Well it's not the the real dead weight, it's the hardworkers in the cubicle trenches and anyone who dared strive for change aka "rocked the boat".

 

[chimp_spanner]

Yeah Mike - well I don't know if you've watched the Zeitgeist stuff, but that first part you mention is actually integral to the cycle of perpetual consumption (their term). Making things cheaply not only saves money; it ensures that a product becomes obsolete and the consumer has to keep...consuming! Planned Obscolescence(sp). Other wonderful byproducts: it also fuels the demand for cheap labor, and increases the amount of waste as products inevitably end up at landfills. So it's three kinds of shitty!

Yup the people who get laid off are never the ones to blame for the problems, or the people who do the least work. We have a book in the house called The Entrepeneurial Web. Whenever I go to the bathroom, I flick through it as it's the only thing in there...well, that and a book of cross-sections, obviously but I opened up to a chapter in which they describe the most successful people in business as being those who know how best to communicate with, and use the people who know the things that THEY need to know in order to get the job done. In theory it advocates cooperation because everyone needs everyone. In reality it just means the people with the least skills relevant to the task are the ones who do the best. It boils my blood so much when people tell me "I know what I want - I just can't do it, but I'm good at delegating" I know a looot of people like that!

I think this is also another part of Fresco's vision: that the people in charge should be the people with the knowledge to solve problems. Who can we thank for the technology we have? Technicians, scientists - not politicians, and not business men. All they do is move money around and give the people with the knowledge the funds to work on societal and technological betterment within a backwards, out of date monetary system. Yes, Capitalism has created the conditions for competition which in turn has produced some amazing things, and a good standard of living. But only for some of us. And in a very long winded way.

I guess someone might argue - but a scientist doesn't nessecarily know what's best for society. And politicians do?! This is why so many progressive ideas come directly from the world of science. Because it is concerned with progress. It isn't afraid to be wrong and change its position and evolve - well, most of the time. Maybe it's time we gave the scientists a shot, eh?

Some kind of....techocracy ¬¬ K. Well and truly babbling now.

 

[Joeywilson]

There is so much I want to comment on in this thread, it'll take me days to do it all but I will say this, Jacque Fresco is a genius and I agree with everything he said in the Zeitgeist...

Zeitgeist is such an amazing peice of work

He seems like the kind of man who could change the entire world if everyone could somehow listen to him talk for even 10 minutes

 

[chimp_spanner]

pff all Denmark do is make blue cheese and good bacon

Which when combined, I might add, make for an AMAZING burger...nom nom nom nom.