Thatcher's Dead.

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Scar Symmetry

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First off, we're not talking about people criticizing Thatcher. What people are doing is rejoicing in the fact that she's dead, which is entirely different from "criticism". And I will say unequivocally that taking pleasure in the death of a human being, ANY human being, does make you a worse person. There have been plenty of people who have died during my lifetime whose beliefs or actions I found objectionable, but I was never HAPPY that they had died, because that is monstrous. It's spiritually poisonous.

Second, I would argue that the Hitler analogy is symptomatic of a larger problem. It's not without reason that Hitler has become such a boogeyman to society; however, I think that the way we talk about Hitler, Nazism and fascism in general is thoroughly counterproductive, certainly to meaningful discussion of them, but also to understanding them. When you reduce Hitler to a demon, to a living embodiment of evil, it becomes impossible to understand how he was able to do what he did. I am in no way asking anybody to excuse the things Hitler did, but it's critically important to remember that Hitler was a human being, and so were those around him. He certainly didn't work alone, so if Hitler was a monster, where do you draw the line? Was everybody in his cabinet a monster as well? Every government employee? Every soldier, every concentration camp guard, every factory worker making war materiel? Everybody who voted for him? Hell, let's pull it back even farther: were the delegates at the treaty of Versailles also monsters, for putting Germany in such a shitty position that electing Hitler seemed like a good idea? These are all questions that can be discussed - although this thread is not the place for them - but my point is that however reprehensible and disgusting his actions may have been, they were the actions of humans. So yes, feel perfectly free to criticize Hitler, but give him the basic level of human decency that every human being deserves, even though he didn't do the same.

Spot on. Everyone gets so carried away with their own limited understanding of history, they think it gives them license to speak ill of anyone they wish because someone in a different country, culture, position of influence, generation, etc did something they would NEVER do... not that they ever had the chance to do it. Demonizing anyone sets up a divide of human v human, which gets us into even messier behaviour.

Yes, remember the actions of certain individuals but also try to understand them so we can learn from them moving forward. No-one is going to forget what happened, so why insist on bashing someone on the actual day they die? News this big sticks around for at least a week anyway, plenty of time to cash in on the guilty pleasures of being a human, if you really must.
 

djentinc

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I think Blair's problem was mainly that he employed Thatcherism, but wasn't as good at doing it.

Excellent! :rofl:

Spot on. Everyone gets so carried away with their own limited understanding of history, they think it gives them license to speak ill of anyone they wish because someone in a different country, culture, position of influence, generation, etc did something they would NEVER do... not that they ever had the chance to do it. Demonizing anyone sets up a divide of human v human, which gets us into even messier behaviour.

Yes, remember the actions of certain individuals but also try to understand them so we can learn from them moving forward. No-one is going to forget what happened, so why insist on bashing someone on the actual day they die? News this big sticks around for at least a week anyway, plenty of time to cash in on the guilty pleasures of being a human, if you really must.

Well said. If people didn't learn from the mistakes of past leaders etc. then we would be stuck in the same loop of problems over and over again.
 

Solodini

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Also, £10 FUCKING MILLION?! FOR A FUCKING FUNERAL?! Such semantics in that it's not a state funeral, apparently. Fuck's sake. Ragin'.
 

liamh

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I've noticed how the people rejoicing and reveling in her death are the same people who were so sanctimonious when it came to the Americans celebrating Osama's death.
 

redstone

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It doesn't change much, she's been dead all her life.
 

elrrek

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http://whydopeoplehatethatcher.com/all

Interesting reading ... and yes, while she did vote in support of the decriminalisation of male homosexuality she was in power when section 28 was created, which sort of negates the previous good will of the previous act!
 

Jakke

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http://whydopeoplehatethatcher.com/all

Interesting reading ... and yes, while she did vote in support of the decriminalisation of male homosexuality she was in power when section 28 was created, which sort of negates the previous good will of the previous act!

Well, there is another way of looking at it. She fought with her party her entire career (what eventually forced her to resign actually), she was never extremely popular with the Tory. As prime minister, you are often forced to follow the party line more closely, as in if the people in the party gets to pissed with you, they can throw you out.

As she was one of the very few conservative MP:s to vote to legalize homosexuality, this suggests it was not a popular position with the Tory. Have you considered that section 28 was a way of keeping her party off her back?

I'd perhaps consider her votes as MP as more representative of her true feelings, as the party line is not towed as heavily by them.

It's just a thought, and nothing that I can prove in any way. She might have wanted to legalize homosexuality just to create a fabulous slave-race, I have no idea.
 

AxeHappy

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She might have wanted to legalize homosexuality just to create a fabulous slave-race, I have no idea.

This would seem to be more in line with the rest of her politics...
 

Dan

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There is a distinct lack of facts here. Let me just show you a small list of the things she did in power, and the reasons why people dislike her:


1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation

I saw the whole situation best worded like this:

You shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but just because someone is dead it doesnt absolve them of what they did in life.

Personally, i've seen first hand the effect of Thatchers reign on the north of the UK, i've lived through the Labour goverment trying to clean up the mess that was made and i'm living through the current Conservative government creating JUST as much damage. I won't say i am glad she is dead; but i will say i wish she had never come to power, and i CERTAINLY don't believe she should have a public funeral at the tax payers cost. :2c:
 

hairychris

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Urg. Lived through it all, my folks (teachers) knew what was going to happen when she won in '79. They weren't wrong.

Loathed her, and pretty much all that she stood for. Celebrated her death? Not while her policies are still very much alive - but she was a powerful symbol. With this in mind I can completely understand people celebrating as she was so divisive.

@Dan above, not all of that on the list was necessarily her or her govt's fault... but yes - the majority were her views (and views of her govt when in power) so I'm not mourning her memory.

Also New Labour (sound of spitting) continued the majority of Thatcher's economic ideas. PPI and continued privatisation, further deregulation of the banks... Fuck them too.

And her frigging son, Mark? That prick deserves his own place next to her in the hell that I don't believe in.

Slightly OT, but check out what Stewart Jackson (Con MP) has been up to on Twitter. Another clueless gimp.

Oh, and this is a laugh:



Glenda Jackson (ex-actress, current North London MP) brings the pwnage.
 

mcd

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There is a distinct lack of facts here. Let me just show you a small list of the things she did in power, and the reasons why people dislike her:


1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation

I saw the whole situation best worded like this:

You shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but just because someone is dead it doesnt absolve them of what they did in life.

Personally, i've seen first hand the effect of Thatchers reign on the north of the UK, i've lived through the Labour goverment trying to clean up the mess that was made and i'm living through the current Conservative government creating JUST as much damage. I won't say i am glad she is dead; but i will say i wish she had never come to power, and i CERTAINLY don't believe she should have a public funeral at the tax payers cost. :2c:

I have no opinion either way, but you are not providing any source for these facts. Just like any other political debate, it sounds like objective thoughts to me until proof is provided.


No offense intended.
 

Grand Moff Tim

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Just like any other political debate, it sounds like objective thoughts to me until proof is provided.

Methinks that's the opposite of the word you're searching for.
 

khournos

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Am I the only one, thinking of a certain song from the "Wizard of Oz"? :cool:
 

Dan

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I have no opinion either way, but you are not providing any source for these facts. Just like any other political debate, it sounds like objective thoughts to me until proof is provided.


No offense intended.

Oh non taken. It's all available online, the reason I didn't add links in is because it made the post farrrrrr too long :lol:
 
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