The Amp Modeling Dilemma - The future for tube/modeling amps

[MaxOfMetal]

This. That is exactly what *some* company *should* do. Build an amp, that looks like an amp. Either hide the LCD screen or put it somewhere out of the way... Have a little door slide over it or some shit, I dunno. Just so that it's there when you need it for advanced tweaking, but out of the way when you don't. And leave the regular bass/mid/treble/presence/pre/post gain etc as regular analog looking knobs, even if they're not analog pots at all behind the scenes.

And it wouldn't be to *fool* anyone or anything, but it would be designed to make it EASY for the plug n' play guy to walk up, tweak a few knobs and start playing, and for the guy who wants to tweak, there's the screen he can use when he wants to.

Right now, Fractal is like Tucker Automobiles. They've taken others ideas and built on them in a major way. In the process of doing so, they've reinvented the wheel a bit, and in a very very good way. I'm telling you, someone, somewhere in the corporate food chain is going to notice and I think they'll get bought out.

And I agree with Customisbetter, if they (Fractal or whomever) who were to start offering some of the amp models a la carte, I could see a lot of people buying them (or just what they need) $$$$.

To expand on all of our ideas.

What if they made a digital system packaged like the Randall MTS series?

You'd have the option of either going rack, OR using a headshell. Instead of tube pre-amp modules you'd have model-specific digital tone modules. Then, for stuff like effects and deeper tweaking they'll be the "hidden" screen and controls.

 

[orb451]

To expand on all of our ideas.

What if they made a digital system packaged like the Randall MTS series?

You'd have the option of either going rack, OR using a headshell. Instead of tube pre-amp modules you'd have model-specific digital tone modules. Then, for stuff like effects and deeper tweaking they'll be the "hidden" screen and controls.

That's it. *That* is what should be done. Fuuuuuuuck. This is one of those times when, if we had the resources, we'd be gozillionaires. You get an amp and amp like controls, the quality/sound of Fractal's stuff, in either rack, head or combo form, analog looking controls and the ability to load in amp modules digitally, on the fly, a la carte.

Game. Fucking. Over.

 

[Sepultorture]

i personally do think digital and solid state will ONE day dominate the market

i wouldn't say completely, but tubes have only been around as long as radio has been around. so we have roughly 100 years, and tube guitar amps didn't come into play until what, the late 40's early 50's, maybe earlier i dunno, to lazy to look it up.

so that's 100 years of tubes, 60 or so years of tube amps, i don't think tubes will be gone in 10 years, but they will be reduced as time passes. companies doing the tube thing will slowly move over to digital. look at peavey, they have their revalver software out, and i personally don't think it does a good job at recreating their tube tones, but it's the way things are heading.

i wouldn't be surprised that in 20-30 years MOST people playing live and recording at that point will be all digital, and most likely will be better sounding than the current digital offerings. i also see the Fractal Axe FX being one of the best steps forward in digital audio innovation, cus this one guy said, "hey, enough of this let's cut corners BS let's actually put our nose to the grind stone and try to emulate these tones the best we can, and not skimp on the hardware while we are at it".

Tubes will still be the norm, for the time being, but they will be phased out of popularity. as for tube amp companies being COMPLETELY gone, i doubt that, i see Fender, Marshall, and Mesa/Boogie sticking to their guns the most. they will continue to put out tube amps, maybe even while dabbling in the digital market as well. Tube amps might be cheaper, cus less would use them, but might also become more expensive because of the BOUTIQUE like stigma put upon them by the minimizing of the tube amp market.

i still like tube amps, Peavey 6505 i like, even my dream amp of the ENGL Fireball 100, but even i'm starting to see benefits of the digital offerings, mostly thanks to Fractal.

there is no question of IF the tube amp will die out, it really is a matter of WHEN

 

[MaxOfMetal]

That's it. *That* is what should be done. Fuuuuuuuck. This is one of those times when, if we had the resources, we'd be gozillionaires. You get an amp and amp like controls, the quality/sound of Fractal's stuff, in either rack, head or combo form, analog looking controls and the ability to load in amp modules digitally, on the fly, a la carte.

Game. Fucking. Over.

Right?!

 

[Customisbetter]

I was actually thinking software based. Maybe cards that can get stuck into an AxeFX box. Im not fond of heads anymore so this is personal preference.

 

[orb451]

I was actually thinking software based. Maybe cards that can get stuck into an AxeFX box. Im not fond of heads anymore so this is personal preference.

Using the Axe as the basis for this hypothetical scenario, seeing as it's basically a PC, then you could add in an SD memory card reader (or equivalent) and load your a la carte amp models / effects as needed. That or via USB from the PC/DAW.

I really believe that what Max and I are describing would be *the* killer app, for amplifiers.

We'd be RIIIIIIIIIIIIIICH Beatch!!!

 

[Sepultorture]

Using the Axe as the basis for this hypothetical scenario, seeing as it's basically a PC, then you could add in an SD memory card reader (or equivalent) and load your a la carte amp models / effects as needed. That or via USB from the PC/DAW.

i really do think the AXE FX needs a USB strictly for the software and updating firmware. too many have been finding problems trying to get it all to work using the MIDI method, Nick as having this problem right now

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

So you're basically thinking a Vetta or Spider Valve or something, but with an Axe as it's brain?

That would be pretty cool. The only problem I see with that is that it wouldn't be modular, ie you couldn't choose to run a Mesa power amp, or VHT, or a Carvin solid state. Would be something simple for a more traditional rig I suppose.

 

[orb451]

So you're basically thinking a Vetta or Spider Valve or something, but with an Axe as it's brain?

That would be pretty cool. The only problem I see with that is that it wouldn't be modular, ie you couldn't choose to run a Mesa power amp, or VHT, or a Carvin solid state. Would be something simple for a more traditional rig I suppose.

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm picturing. The AxeFX is the "heart" of it, but add in the physical controls and other stuff as needed. Plus, imagine the modularity you'd get if amps / effects were sold individually or in small packs. You wouldn't need to worry about a bunch of blues amp models if you don't want to.

And I agree, the AxeFX does need (at some point) some kind of USB interface. I'm sure they'll probably work one into the next hardware iteration. But for the present, for me, it's not a deal-breaker, I don't mind the MIDI stuff at all.

 

[LordOVchaoS]

Muse is another company to think about... Their rack gear basically just loads VST effects. Their newest one comes with Peavey Revalver. The possibilities are endless at this point! There are some VERY good software modelers out there, free ones at that!

 

[Key_Maker]

I don't really think that "digital and solid state will ONE day dominate the market", basically for the huge ammount of guitarrist and studio persons that doesn't need those enterprise boards and buttons and options, don't forget that only metalheads or madonna/gaga/wayne guitarrist (and some douchebags) likes/need the small package/full options from this things, but bluesmans, jazzist or straight forward rockrers just need some guitar, a couple of cables, a cab and a head.

The only downside is that there will be marshalls for ever.

 

[blister7321]

^ this is all true

I read that

I'm just saying that this discussion is primarily about the Axe, since it's pretty much the top of the line as far as modelers go right now. You can't just say "fuck modeling amps" when you haven't tried the better ones out there.

Ever try a Vetta? The Digitech GSP1101? Until you do, completely discounting all modeling and making a statement like that is just being a tube/analog snob

I also don't use modeling, but there are some options out now that are very decent, and make for a very flexible rig if you do need it.

yes i have theyre too over the top rediculous for me
again i like simplicity and while i see the point behind modeling amps
for me tho they dont do what theyre supposed to do and make everything too complicated and so thats why i said that
im entitled to my own opinion, you have yours

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

How exactly do they not do what they're supposed to do? They're supposed to amplify your sound....why they do just fine.

Your entitled to your opinion, but if you had offered something a bit more than "fuck modeling amps" than I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

I personally hate the 5150 and all it's variants, but I'm not going to say "fuck the 5150"

 

[TemjinStrife]

I like my six-knob two-channel combo amp that gives me a great clean tone when I roll off the knob on my drive channel, and sick saturated sounds when I crank it. Sure, it's loud, heavy, and eats tubes, but I get more pleasure out of playing it than I have with any modeler.

Probably because it forces me to "play" instead of "tweak endlessly."

Modelers are great, and they have many advantages, but I haven't found one that's had a sound that's "spoken" to me.

 

[LordOVchaoS]

I personally hate the 5150 and all it's variants, but I'm not going to say "fuck the 5150"

Sweet!!! I thought I was totally alone on this one

 

[Crucified]

Sweet!!! I thought I was totally alone on this one

cockknobblers. my 5150 is awesome. i might like my axefx more though. so can i effectively tell this whole thread to fuck off? or is that going too far?

 

[G_3_3_k_]

There's no digital equivalent to electrons passing through tubes and wires. You can aproximate it. But never duplicate it without the exact amp system. The system you reproducing the sound on will color your sound and further skew it from what it's supposed to resemble. My opinion is that software can't perfectly emulate physics in all of it's respects. Or can't until all of these variables can function as algorhythnms at a small enough bit rate and depth to resemble analog.

 

[Customisbetter]

^I can NOT hear the difference, and i Can feel the weight difference. So that my argument.

 

[TomAwesome]

Things could still go any number of ways, I think. If the quality of tubes in general keeps going down, though, tube amps are definitely going to end up being a thing of the past. Depending on where other technologies go in the meantime, though, it may not end up being such a terrible thing.

One of the biggest problems I see as far as moving forward with amp technology is that anything that's not a tube amp generally gets judged on how much like a tube amp it is. Digital and solid state both have a lot of potential. I think that solid state amp manufacturers especially should stop trying to come up with ways to better emulate tubes and just focus on how good they can get a solid state amp to sound.

Any given piece of gear should be treated as what it is and not as what you're used to or what you wish you'd have bought instead. One of the things I like the most about my Axe-FX is that I can do things to the amps that I'd never be able to do with a real amp. Fuck authenticity. If I can turn some knobs and get something that sounds better, I'm going to do it. Products that are made to emulate other things in a more affordable or convenient package are great, but when the whole industry is hung up on making something sound like something that it isn't rather than exploring what it could be in its own right, it really sets back real progress.

 

[Key_Maker]

Always will be guitar players that are looking to replicate the sound of his guitar hero, a Slash fan boy never could buy an AXE for that purpose becouse he uses a Gibson Les Paul and a Marshall Amp, as long those guys exist will be stuff for them.