The Amp Modeling Dilemma - The future for tube/modeling amps

[Bevo]

McKay
I thought that too but looking at all the posts makes me realize that it may not be an issue of preference but of availability.

Think of your cell phone or computer from 10-15 years ago and look at what you have now. Hell just over 100 years ago we had no cars or even fridges in our homes.

How about a 69 Camaro vs a 2010, big difference but it has both people the love and hate them.

Tubes will be the same, people will always love them but they will start getting more expensive and more digital. Once tubes become a specialty item they can charge what they want, good time to get into manufacturing them by the way.
Pure classic tube amps will be used sparingly just like the old hot rods.

Digital will get so good it will make today AXE look like a pocket calculater, who would not want one? At that point supply and demand kicks in and the price drops to dirt cheap. remeber 42 inch LCD TV's 10 years ago?

Great topic by the way!

 

[yacker]

A couple things to remember:

2. There's so many guitarists that aren't hanging around guitar forums

I think the above is something that's being greatly underestimated here. Just in this thread alone there is still a significant amount of disagreement in the tube/digital argument and we would be considered the techy/gear geek crowd. In my city, for every one guitarist like me (gets on forums, post/reads up on the latest gear) there has to be a thousand guitarists who don't do any of the above (or at least several hundred). I know many, many, many guitarists who don't get on the boards, don't constantly look into new gear, and are still certainly consumers.

Does that mean all those other guitarist are tube snobs? Of course not. Many other factors will influence their purchases. I just think that the growing popularity of the axe-fx and other modeling gear on guitar forums is leading to a false sense of 'modeling is suddenly taking over' when in reality I'd guess they are capturing a small fraction of the market.

So long as there is significant demand for a product it will be made. Look at how much shit is made that we don't give a shit about. I don't see anything other then the different amplifier technologies coexisting for a very long time.

 

[chaosxcomplex]

It was mentioned to have a digital amp with the layout of a classic head...I had the line6 hd147, it was pretty damn straight forward. Gain, bass, mid, treble, presence, channel volume, master volume, and simple controls for the effects and gate. It did not have tubes in the power section, but good god man!!!! I can't even imagine the nut rattling crunch that would have made!!!

 

[TMM]

I think the above is something that's being greatly underestimated here. Just in this thread alone there is still a significant amount of disagreement in the tube/digital argument and we would be considered the techy/gear geek crowd. In my city, for every one guitarist like me (gets on forums, post/reads up on the latest gear) there has to be a thousand guitarists who don't do any of the above (or at least several hundred). I know many, many, many guitarists who don't get on the boards, don't constantly look into new gear, and are still certainly consumers.

Does that mean all those other guitarist are tube snobs? Of course not. May other factors will influence their purchases. I just think that the growing popularity of the axe-fx and other modeling gear on guitar forums is leading to a false sense of 'modeling is suddenly taking over' when in reality I'd guess they are capturing a small fraction of the market.

+1 that's a really good point. I think there's a pretty strong correlation between being a 'techy/geek' guitarist and being more likely to be on forums vs a classic LP / tube amp player. So, the people more likely to mess around with modelers and convert to fully digital rigs are also the people that are more likely to be posting on a forum.

 

[123321123]

axe-fx own brand amp models

I guess I got the wrong impression. Consider my statement retracted.

 

[LordOVchaoS]

I guess I got the wrong impression. Consider my statement retracted.

I could continue with...

Line 6:

Big Bottom
Fuzz
Octone
Smash
Sparkle Clean
Throttle
Clean
Mood
Agro
Class A
Lunatic
Bayou
Crunch
Purge
Sparkle
Super Clean
SuperSpark
Twang
Chunk Chunk
Insane
Spinal Puppet
Chemical X

Digitech:

Blackbass
Blues
Bright Clean
Brownsound
Chunk
Clean Tube
Crunch
Darkmetal
Fuzz
GSP2101TM Artist Clean Tube
GSP2101 Artist Saturated Tube
High Gain
Metal
Monster
Mosh
Solo
Spank
Stonerrock
Transistor
Tweedface

THEN there's VST modelers like AcmeBarGig that kick all kinds of ass and they're almost all original models!

 

[123321123]

I could continue with...

Line 6:

Big Bottom
Fuzz
Octone
Smash
Sparkle Clean
Throttle
Clean
Mood
Agro
Class A
Lunatic
Bayou
Crunch
Purge
Sparkle
Super Clean
SuperSpark
Twang
Chunk Chunk
Insane
Spinal Puppet
Chemical X

Digitech:

Blackbass
Blues
Bright Clean
Brownsound
Chunk
Clean Tube
Crunch
Darkmetal
Fuzz
GSP2101TM Artist Clean Tube
GSP2101 Artist Saturated Tube
High Gain
Metal
Monster
Mosh
Solo
Spank
Stonerrock
Transistor
Tweedface

THEN there's VST modelers like AcmeBarGig that kick all kinds of ass and they're almost all original models!

I never liked Line 6's stuff that much, so I chose to ignore their attempts.

I really like what Peavey try with revalver though.

 

[LordOVchaoS]

Fractal Audio Systems • View topic - Interesting New Axe FX Owner

 

[TMM]

Big Bottom FTW Everybody likes those

 

[cwhitey2]

tubes will never die... when they can fix all the little bugs with the digital stuff it may be competitive. i personally have the best of both with line 6 spider valve mkii, but it is by no means near perfect. the tones you can get out of it are sweet but its like using a computer instead of an amp. i bought it with the idea that theres more effects in there than ill ever need, so i should have no problems coming up with new song ideas. I think the spv mkii is the closest to tube modeling out now (only for the fact that it has actual tubes in it). i have not tried any other modeling software besides pod 2.0 but i thought that sucked. what they need to do is put axe-fx in an actual amp instead of seperate.

 

[ellengtrgrl]

Oh wow

Different strokes for different folks.

Modeling has definitely started to put a dent in the tube amp market. I, for example, have only an Axe-FX now. I went from tube, to hybrid, to just modeling.

Another example is how popular the Axe-FX is at The Gear Page... We're talking about guys who spend SEVERAL thousands of dollars on a single channel, low watt amp. There's a lot of RICH people over there that can buy whatever they want and they are TOTAL tube snobs!!! But... a lot of them ditched their amps for an Axe-FX in recent years.

Another thing to consider is the demand of vaccum tubes... it's not that great... Tubes are a product of a very small hobby in the big picture. What? Guitarists and HAM radio enthusiasts that's about it. Maybe 1% of the worlds population is still buying tubes, it's not going to last forever. I and a VERY reputable tube salesman had a talk about this once. He gives it less than a decade and you'll be limited to used tubes, the companies are hanging on by a thread right now and the quality of tubes, per capita, is HORRIBLE.

SO... we have modeling or transistors. Computers or solid state. Both of these are part of our everyday life now, they're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Ummm actually not that many Ham Radiio operators use them anymore for the main radio (I've had a Ham Radio license for the past 32 years). Most transceivers are microprocessor controlled . The only tube rigs/radios anymore, are vintage ones (I have a couple that I restored - they're not as flexible as my modern rig, but they are fun to use), and power amps, to boost the basic 100 watt ham radio's signal several hundred, 1000 watts, or in the case of U.S. hams 1500 watts (the legal limit). The only reason the majority of power amps use tubes yet, is because a 3-500Z, 3cx800, 4CX250B, are still cheaper than power transistors (some Motorola power transistors can cost $300 or more, and most power amps need more than one power transistor [forget about power ICs - you won't get hundreds of watts out of those]) . Tubes also don't need lots of funky circuitry (which can still act up every now and then), to keep them from nuking out like a power transistor can when an impedance mismatch occurs.

So, in a nutshell, tubes do have their uses. At super high power, they are the only way to go (almost all shortwave broadcasters use huge power tubes, to pump out their 100,000, 500,000, or mega watt signals).

With regards to tube vs digital modeling amps - wellllllllll, it's a horse a piece. Modelers, be they the Axe FX, or a POD XT, will never sound 100% like a tube amp, because they are not digitally sampling the entire (analog) signal, that a tube or analog transistor amp puts out. But, if the sample rate is high enough, a modeling can still do a good enough job of sounding like the amp, that it's trying to emulate, that most people would never realize that it's not a tube amp in a blindfold test. But, as was mentioned earlier, you you are still working with the basic digital soundfile made of the amp you're emulating, and there may be things that a player of the tube amp in question is doing with it (say running it through a variac in a low outlet voltage state), that you just can't do with your modeler, because you can only tweak a soundifile so much (even with addtional processing power), before it just plain sounds like wierd synth noise. But, the majority of the time, a modeling amp, probably is more than enough to do the job musically. Also, in the case of preamps like the AxeFX, you don't have to deal with just about breaking your back lugging a 70 pound head, or 100 pound Mesa 2x12 combo. That is a BIG plus! By the same token, an analog amp is more plug in and play, with less time spent in doing the "what parameter can I tweek in the settings to hit that narrowly defined perfect sound I want?" thing.

IMO - tube, transistor, and modeling amps all have their place. There is no such thing as the perfect amp technology.

 

[sevenstringj]

And don't forget, people are still looking to tubes to amplify this stuff.

 

[Distortion]

I find this thread pretty interesting, a lot of great ideas and opinions out there...

I just checked out a "gear tour" video Chris Broderick of Megadeth did not too long ago and he's actually using Axe-FX Ultra units going to a Marshall poweramp.

Honestly, the fact that some musicians in important bands are actually starting to use modelers as the main part of their rigs will in have an impact on how modelers are perceived and accepted in the long run. As many have mentionned, I think modelers have pretty much been imbraced by musicians that stay current with what gear is out there and by "guitar geeks" that read up on forums. Your average rocker might not be interested in learning or using relatively complex gear to get the sound he wants... Chris was explaining how he was routing things with his Axe FX and talking about some features in the unit. Awesome stuff but to some people, there's just no interest in learning all that stuff and some people, no matter how simple the interface is to use, are just overwhelmed by all the possibilities.

I remember when I got my GuitarPort a few years ago how overwhelmed I felt seing all the options I had in Gearbox... Today, now that i'm used to it and understand how it all works, I get through it easily but for someone's who's been used to just plug a guitar into an amp head, adjust bass mid and treble and rock out, might not be interested in so much features.

Sound quality and what sounds good is subjective. No, no matter how efficient an algorithm gets or how much detail can be put into it or the processing power available, it'll never ever be able to simulate all the variables and aspects of a flow of electrons through a tube. It's just too complex and most of the time, mathematical functions that describe movement (for example) are all aproximations and don't take into account a bunch of things that will produce a more "exact" result at the cost of extra calculations and variables. Hell, some formulas get so complex when we take into account very minute details that we don't even have a way to actually resolve them.

I personally think the way the Axe-FX works is a step in the right direction in emulating an amp. Instead of taking an amp as a whole, every little stage in the amp is emulated. This is how we'll end up having something that sounds very close to a tube amp but in the end, it'll never be possible to have the exact same result. It might not be perceivable, but it won't be the exact same thing.

In the end, like mentionned above, we still use tube power amps to amplify the signal coming out of the modeler unit

I have a feeling that modelers are very popular in home studios and for recording since it's a very hastle free way to record compared to blasting an amp and micing it, etc. You can get very good quality recordings for a fraction of the price it would of cost, say 20years ago. That, for me, is a huge advantage.

The flexibilty aspect of modelers appeal to some people, but not everyone for the reasons I mentionned above. The place where tube amps might disapear (in my opinion) is in the studio. For a live setting though, you can't beat the punch and air moving power of a tube amp, or at least, a modeler going through a tube power amp

 

[Sepultorture]

going back to a more DEMISE of tubes type theory

even though there will always be people that are into tube amps, myself included. give it another 60-100 years an i think there won't be tubes anymore. in that span of time, what company is STILL going to make tubes. what amp company is going to use ancient tech that will in the end cost them more than the current tech. i don't see tube being gone in say 20 years, but i still think that tube will eventually be on it's way out in the future. we will eventually get that good at writing code and algorithms that emulate and maybe even surpass tubes someday.

Distortion is also right that there really are to many variables in a tube amp that cannot be simulated 100%. i also think that digital, even though they MODEL after tubes, will one day just do it's own take on amp tones, not modeling after a current amp, but just making their own, like the FAS models on the AXE FX.

the digital realm has also seen the inclusion of power amp and cab sims, being able to tweak variables that you other wise couldn't do. tweak transformer settings, tube types, use of Parametric EQ's, low/high pass filters, all in one effects with massive tweakability. this might be too much for your average or first time buyer, but that's why these units have presets. put on the preset and go, don't like it, just tweak the bass, mids, treble, presence, depth, volume what have you, and kids if they really dug into digital stuff they could come up with some pretty sick shit.

meshuggah already uses the AXE FX to great effect

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Honestly, I think if the AxeFx had a global EQ control on the front (actual knobs) with Bass, Mid, Treble, Presence, etc. it would be A LOT more attractive to some players.

I think the old "single knob" editing that all the "classic" preamps from the 80's have, have poisoned the idea of having to go through multiple menus and extra button mashing just to get to the core tone/EQ controls.

That will mean all the "I need to make EQ adjustments on the fly!" crowd will be able to.

 

[TemjinStrife]

Honestly, I think if the AxeFx had a global EQ control on the front (actual knobs) with Bass, Mid, Treble, Presence, etc. it would be A LOT more attractive to some players.

I think the old "single knob" editing that all the "classic" preamps from the 80's have, have poisoned the idea of having to go through multiple menus and extra button mashing just to get to the core tone/EQ controls.

That will mean all the "I need to make EQ adjustments on the fly!" crowd will be able to.

This. If I need more mids in a live setting, or less gain, or need to tweak bass to fit a room, I want to be able to walk over to my amp mid-song, grab a knob, and turn.

 

[Larrikin666]

This. If I need more mids in a live setting, or less gain, or need to tweak bass to fit a room, I want to be able to walk over to my amp mid-song, grab a knob, and turn.

+1. I'm pretty comfortable going in and tweaking things, but a few more knobs would have been less overwhelming for me at first.

 

[TMM]

This. If I need more mids in a live setting, or less gain, or need to tweak bass to fit a room, I want to be able to walk over to my amp mid-song, grab a knob, and turn.

+1 I think this is at least 1 pretty huge advantage the Prophesy & PODx3 have over most of the other highly-programmable preamps on the market. That kind of ease-of-editing convenience can't (or shouldn't) be overlooked.

 

[Forced Chaos]

I don't know about ya'll but personally processors to me are a nightmare. All too often the stock patches are not all that great and then you basically have to make your patches from scratch which leads to alot of time in tweaking. They are super versitile and a great tool but I can't stand over complicated shit when it comes to guitar tone and effects. I will always just want to plug into a head and have my pedalboard where I can dial in a few knobs on my pedals and get the sound I want easily. I've tried processors in the past but ended up spending most of my time fucking with the thing rather than actually playing guitar LOL!

 

[JohnIce]

I've actually found it easier to get good tones with the Axe-Fx than with tube amps... I mean, once you've dialed in a patch (which now takes about 10 minutes on average since I've really learned the unit), that patch is saved and won't change for a hundred years if I don't want it to.

But with an amp rig... disregarding all the physical aspects of tubes breaking or being bad quality, cables sucking signal, etc., you can set up an amp onstage and it'll sound nothing like it did last night. The room is shaped differently, the walls are different material, the air is a different temperature, the house-mics are of varying quality, the sound guy doesn't know how to mic sh*t so you have to position, walk out on the floor and listen, go back and adjust etc. until you think it may sound good once there's a bunch of people in the room absorbing and reflecting sound. Then there's mic leakage from the other instruments, you need to turn up to get the poweramp working thus ending up in chaos on stage and kittens die.

Not to mention, If I feel the cab is a little fizzy on the Axe-Fx, I can dial that down in seconds. But with a real cab, the only way to change that is to buy new speakers or a new cabinet.

I think "plug and play" isn't all it's cracked up to be, as most of the time when I've been happy plugging and playing there have been a million other things fucking up my tone that I couldn't do anything about. This is why I love the Axe-Fx, it'll always sound good because I said so.