The Amp Modeling Dilemma - The future for tube/modeling amps

[jbcrazy]

I just meant that, for a given all-tube amp, a given modeler won't be able to copy the tone & 'feel' exactly; I can't tell if it sounds like you disagree, or if you agree, but actually like the tone and / or feel of the Axe better.



Haha, yeah, I've read that more than once. Hilarious when someone describes an Engl SE as sounding 'digital' (yes, I've read that multiple times). What does a Line-6 sound like, then? An automatic can opener?



Speaking of this... (maybe slightly off-topic) What do you think of the Mackie? Do you get enough volume / tone for practice / shows out of just 1, or do you use a pair of them? Feel free to PM instead of reply if you'd prefer to keep it out of this thread.



Haha, yeah, someone mentioned that earlier in this thread, that tube amps will exist if for nothing else then to be something new to model. I think someone else replied that the digital companies (Fractal, Line-6, etc) are already making their own signature digital models (like the Line-6 Big Bottom) that are plenty successful on their own. I haven't tried an Axe myself yet, so I can't speak to Fractal, but I know with Line-6, as cool as the Big Bottom and Chunk Chunk are, I still like the Triple Rec and Silver Jubilee (ie. 'real' amp) models better.

About copying tones. I am unsure if it is 100 percent because unless Cliff comes over to my house and shows me the process of the modeling and how he runs his rig to make his models, I don't think I'd ever get a perfect replication. I am not interested in that though as you said.

And you are correct. I actually like the tones coming out of the Axe-FX more than the real deals. I am not so much looking for a VH4 clone for instance when i use the VH4 "amp model" in the axe-fx. There are attributes in the VH4 I like, and given the right set up with the Axe, you can only improve on it... that's how good the "modeling" is and its better than just having a fake VH4 in your house IMO. It sounds better than my Diezel rig.

About the Mackie don't need a PM. In short, you need to tame the low end, but once you do.. its loud... powerful.. pushes air and will beat down any drummer and any brutal cabinet you can name. I run it mono for now, just sold my VHT poweramp and going to pick up another to run stereo. Someone is going to die.

I run the mackie MINIMUM DB, with the Axe-FX output at 10 o'clock and its already just BLAZING.

 

[cyril v]

Why everybody asumes that the "flexibility" the way for more and better equipment?

You can't forget that there's people (i am one of those) that is completely happy making the plug-and-play as a statement.

*snip*
*snip*

Just 1 amazing sound!

More play, less gear...

Govan uses three different amps on Erotic Cakes...

Joe Bonamassa... check out his gear tour, he uses 4 amps live (you can actually see them pan past them in the video you posted, lol). I'd bet he has way more that he uses in the studio.



Plus they both rock huge pedal boards... their set-ups are pretty far from plug-in and play, also all of that stuff could be done with just one Axe FX.

Just sayin'

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

Haha, yeah, someone mentioned that earlier in this thread, that tube amps will exist if for nothing else then to be something new to model. I think someone else replied that the digital companies (Fractal, Line-6, etc) are already making their own signature digital models (like the Line-6 Big Bottom) that are plenty successful on their own. I haven't tried an Axe myself yet, so I can't speak to Fractal, but I know with Line-6, as cool as the Big Bottom and Chunk Chunk are, I still like the Triple Rec and Silver Jubilee (ie. 'real' amp) models better.

IMO for this industry to move forward, we have to separate the digital world from the analog world. There is no way that a digital "model" will be able to replicate 100% accuracy to its tube counterpart. Any person, or company that tells you theirs can, is full of shit. Full stop.

Is there great sounding amp sims, hell yeah, but making it look like a Marshall doesn't make it a Marshall. I fully respect that amp modelers are starting to create their own original digital heads and I think that is where anyone who uses these technologies should look to and support. Get rid of the marketting hype and the make believe that there is a little VOX living inside the comuter and start really developing digital virtual amps that take advantage of all the extra features digital can bring, instead of the deception that amp models can model 100% accurate, because simply put they cannot.

Its commonly agreed that SPICE can accurately model circuits, and I believe it can and does. The source code for SPICE is available free, so why hasn't anyone turned that source code into an amp model? If we have something that can represent any circuit including tubes, and we all agree its accurate(which we do), then why isn't anyone using it? Its one thing to mathematically represent what a circuit does at a certain given frequency, its quite another to represent what that circuit does at ALL frequencies, oh and there is the little thing we call infinit sample rate found in tube amps, so how many samples away from 96k is infinit?

The best the industry can do, and this is only my opinion, is grow some nuts and start promoting their own digital creations. Then maybe we'd see this technology really move forward...
KM

 

[Van Heezey]

IMO for this industry to move forward, we have to separate the digital world from the analog world. There is no way that a digital "model" will be able to replicate 100% accuracy to its tube counterpart. Any person, or company that tells you theirs can, is full of shit. Full stop.

Is there great sounding amp sims, hell yeah, but making it look like a Marshall doesn't make it a Marshall. I fully respect that amp modelers are starting to create their own original digital heads and I think that is where anyone who uses these technologies should look to and support. Get rid of the marketting hype and the make believe that there is a little VOX living inside the comuter and start really developing digital virtual amps that take advantage of all the extra features digital can bring, instead of the deception that amp models can model 100% accurate, because simply put they cannot.

Its commonly agreed that SPICE can accurately model circuits, and I believe it can and does. The source code for SPICE is available free, so why hasn't anyone turned that source code into an amp model? If we have something that can represent any circuit including tubes, and we all agree its accurate(which we do), then why isn't anyone using it? Its one thing to mathematically represent what a circuit does at a certain given frequency, its quite another to represent what that circuit does at ALL frequencies, oh and there is the little thing we call infinit sample rate found in tube amps, so how many samples away from 96k is infinit?

The best the industry can do, and this is only my opinion, is grow some nuts and start promoting their own digital creations. Then maybe we'd see this technology really move forward...
KM

Amen man. I don't have anything to say after this.

 

[Dead Undead]

The production of tubes has almost come to an end...

Shit. Better stock up. I just ordered my first tube amp.

 

[Van Heezey]

Shit. Better stock up. I just ordered my first tube amp.

Same! Reading his post made me all sad inside.

 

[asmegin_slayer]

I don't doubt tubes will diminish, but not totally go out of production as there will always be people wanting to experiment with tubes for any audio/amp purposes.

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

I don't doubt tubes will diminish, but not totally go out of production as there will always be people wanting to experiment with tubes for any audio/amp purposes.

Plus there is some military applications that need tubes. Not because the equipment is old, but just because tubes are just better suited for them..

More about the original topic, The future of these technologies

Tube amp or amp sim?
For me, Tube amp most of the time, but digital amps also have their place.

Now if there was not all these 9 gazillion versions of what are deemed to be a Marshall, Fender or VOX, we would not have people who really know what Marshall sounds like taking up odds against this technology. As a result I think these tube purists(like myself) would be more apt to giving the digital amp a try, thus expanding the digital amps user base. These people would NOT be seeing the digital amp as a cheap imitation, but as another tone creation tool, perhaps accepting it for its own set of strengths instead of looking at it for its weaknesses.

I know when I get an amp sim and it is billed as an AC30, instantly I'm like yeah OK? Sure it is! I have owned AC30's and know them very well. I have still yet to find one that is 100% as billed. There is very close imitations, but in the end, if you want a tube amp sound, there is only one place to get it, thats a tube amp..

In summary about the question at hand, (the future of these technologies). The amp SIM industry has not changed for how long? Well since it started! Its still the same. Same marketting approach where they bring out a new model and re-sell the the latest upgrade with a new Marshall, maybe a fender, and perhaps something really original like a 5150...

Now compare the analog amp industry and decide if it has moved forward.

The Bassman, the grand daddy of amps! What has changed since then? Thousands of innovations, from the way tubes are made in manufacturing, to their design, from resistors and capacitors to their placement inside a head, from adding reverb to building in digital effects, speaker design cabinet design, speaker masterial, cabinet material, the list goes on and on.
Now thats an unfair comparison one may think, after all the analog amp industry has been around a lot longer than modeling. So lets compare some innovations that have happened since modeling started, and see which industry is actually forward thinking.

Lets compare speakers for example
What's new in analog since modeling started? First thing that comes to mind is Neodymium Magnets, acrylic adhesives, Kevlar, and Konex to name a few innovations.

What's new in speaker simulation since modeling started..
Modeled speakers based on thiele small...I believe thats what the first modeled speakers were based on(I could be wrong). Those measurements have been around since the mid 70's and recently there has been a push back to modeled cabinets and away from convolution! So could it be going backwards?

So what else has happened since then? Well convolution cabinets and impulse response files, volterra...Now these are not really anything new, these ideas/techniques have been around in some cases for centuries. The application of them in this way, is the only innovation, but hardly an innovation. Its just a new twist on convolution reverbs, the guys that first started employing that technique deserve the credit for convolution cabinets...

You can literally pick apart each major section in an amp system and compare it in this way. The contrast is stark, the modeling world seems to lack innovation when compared to the analog world.

So the danger to the future of modeling is simple, if no one makes tube amps and schematics, then the modeling world will have nothing to copy...

Its a catch 22 for the modelers, people want imitations of the real thing, because they have not been given the opportunity to try some of the innovations that the modelers could come up with, the modelers can't create these innovations because people want the imitations..

Thats why I say, someone needs to grow some nuts and go against the grain...

Just my 2 cents..
KM

 

[Albionic]

I think in the future as pc's become more advanced (we are tralking way way in the future here) marshall,peavey etc will sell you a software model of an amp,speaker,pedal,etc. rather than an actual amp. you want a jcm 800? you just go to the marshall website and buy the download. be prapared for massive law suits as amp companies try to stop the likes of line6 form releasing similarly named cheaper copies of their models.the amp companies will eventually have to take on the modeling companies. i mean who would pay £2000 for a mesa when the axe fx 10 ultra can sound the same and also sound like any other amp. they will have to make it so that the only way to sound like a mesa is to buy an amp or model from them.

 

[demigod]

post below^^

 

[demigod]

My opinion: Screw analog. Heavy, bulky, inefficient, and i dont have a problem with something being old but. Just convenience is the most important thing. We live in a world that if it wasnt for diseases there wouldnt be room to breath, and space is going to become ever more scarce. Look at Japan. cliche, but true. And inefficiency is a great factor to take into account. It's naive to think that moddelers will not overtake tubes, and the most people that cling to there tubes is because they probably sold a kidney and half a liver to get it.

Plus there is some military applications that need tubes. Not because the equipment is old, but just because tubes are just better suited for them..

More about the original topic, The future of these technologies

Tube amp or amp sim?
For me, Tube amp most of the time, but digital amps also have their place.

Now if there was not all these 9 gazillion versions of what are deemed to be a Marshall, Fender or VOX, we would not have people who really know what Marshall sounds like taking up odds against this technology. As a result I think these tube purists(like myself) would be more apt to giving the digital amp a try, thus expanding the digital amps user base. These people would NOT be seeing the digital amp as a cheap imitation, but as another tone creation tool, perhaps accepting it for its own set of strengths instead of looking at it for its weaknesses.

I know when I get an amp sim and it is billed as an AC30, instantly I'm like yeah OK? Sure it is! I have owned AC30's and know them very well. I have still yet to find one that is 100% as billed. There is very close imitations, but in the end, if you want a tube amp sound, there is only one place to get it, thats a tube amp..

In summary about the question at hand, (the future of these technologies). The amp SIM industry has not changed for how long? Well since it started! Its still the same. Same marketting approach where they bring out a new model and re-sell the the latest upgrade with a new Marshall, maybe a fender, and perhaps something really original like a 5150...

Now compare the analog amp industry and decide if it has moved forward.

The Bassman, the grand daddy of amps! What has changed since then? Thousands of innovations, from the way tubes are made in manufacturing, to their design, from resistors and capacitors to their placement inside a head, from adding reverb to building in digital effects, speaker design cabinet design, speaker masterial, cabinet material, the list goes on and on.
Now thats an unfair comparison one may think, after all the analog amp industry has been around a lot longer than modeling. So lets compare some innovations that have happened since modeling started, and see which industry is actually forward thinking.

Lets compare speakers for example
What's new in analog since modeling started? First thing that comes to mind is Neodymium Magnets, acrylic adhesives, Kevlar, and Konex to name a few innovations.

What's new in speaker simulation since modeling started..
Modeled speakers based on thiele small...I believe thats what the first modeled speakers were based on(I could be wrong). Those measurements have been around since the mid 70's and recently there has been a push back to modeled cabinets and away from convolution! So could it be going backwards?

So what else has happened since then? Well convolution cabinets and impulse response files, volterra...Now these are not really anything new, these ideas/techniques have been around in some cases for centuries. The application of them in this way, is the only innovation, but hardly an innovation. Its just a new twist on convolution reverbs, the guys that first started employing that technique deserve the credit for convolution cabinets...

You can literally pick apart each major section in an amp system and compare it in this way. The contrast is stark, the modeling world seems to lack innovation when compared to the analog world.

So the danger to the future of modeling is simple, if no one makes tube amps and schematics, then the modeling world will have nothing to copy...

Its a catch 22 for the modelers, people want imitations of the real thing, because they have not been given the opportunity to try some of the innovations that the modelers could come up with, the modelers can't create these innovations because people want the imitations..

Thats why I say, someone needs to grow some nuts and go against the grain...

Just my 2 cents..
KM

And i do have to agree on that in the sense that the moddelers need to create theire own sounds too, not that they do not already but they should put a lot of effort into creating those tones.

 

[Joelan]

I'm just glad that in my 10 years of playing, I've still owned the same SS practice amp. Only now am I getting an Axe-FX and I don't have enough experience with tube amps to miss what they supposedly offer.

I'm a practical man, so the way I see it, if you are happy with the sound of your modeller, then it doesn't matter if it nails a tube tone. Who's to say that tube amps offer the best tone anyway? I may just happen to prefer the sound of a modeller. Thankfully, I will probably never know and I will hopefully be 100% satisfied with my expensive-ass modeller

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

I completely agree with what everyone said. In my heart of hearts I don't believe in the end modeling will take over, Virtual amps will, but not modeling. Afterall, the simple name modeling alludes to it being an imitation and I don't think people ever want to settle for second best, which is a model! Now original digital virtual amps, yes I believe thats where the future lays.

I just wish we'd stop seeing so much time being spent on making imitations and more time on original works. I just don't see how spending more time on the fallacy that amp sims are like the real thing is helping the industry move forward as a whole?

@Jolean what is missing from modelers is the true dynamics that tubes and real speakers bring. This is not so much for the recorded piece but for the player actually playing the piece. Most of your style and technique come from the feel that the amp and speakers bring to the table.

Great conversation guys!

 

[demigod]

My whole problem is that this supposed "tube superiority" is just a movement instigated by the tube manufacturers.

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

demigod, yes, agreed that is entirely possible...However, I would like to know why the modeling community is so slow to move forward...

 

[Joelan]

@Jolean what is missing from modelers is the true dynamics that tubes and real speakers bring. This is not so much for the recorded piece but for the player actually playing the piece. Most of your style and technique come from the feel that the amp and speakers bring to the table.

I guess I've been playing through solid state amps and cheap modellers for so long that that's what I'm used to the feel of.

I don't feel like the amps are restricting my playing at all, though they could sound better

The tube amps I've played through weren't life changing. They sound great but they don't feel revolutionary. Granted, I was playing a Fender Hotrod Deluxe in a metal setting but still

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

Well some amp sims can give a feel, although I have never had one match the feel of a real tube amp, nor the power. If it works for you, then at the end of the day thats really all that matters. As long as you are playing then life is good..

My only real peeve with amp simulation is the apparent lack of originality and innovation. Its a computer for gods sake, it can do more than what we are having it do now..Its the only machine in mankind's history that does not have any end purpose defined.

 

[Van Heezey]

It's naive to think that moddelers will not overtake tubes, and the most people that cling to there tubes is because they probably sold a kidney and half a liver to get it.

I dunno man, I traded an amp that I bought for $350 for a used tube amp, and I'd fight swordsmen to keep that thing. But that's just me

I'm sure all the POD and Axe-Fx owners out there also have tube amps to play through, simply because they love the sounds, and the whole charisma that they bring to playing. I know that playing through my POD doesn't give me near the enjoyment as playing through my amp.

 

[Explorer]

I absolutely agree with the idea that the .mp3 format, or any compressed format, will never become more popular than vinyl, or someday outsell it. Vinyl sounds vastly superior, even though one needs to be more careful with the system's more delicate components.

I absolutely agree that a modeled amp, or any non-tube amp, will never become more popular than tubes, or someday outsell a tube amp. Tubes sound vastly superior, even though one needs to be more careful with the system's more delicate components.

----

There have been studies where people who grew up with compressed audio tended to prefer those artifacts when doing blind listening tests. Tastes shifted because the population changed.

In the same way that the generation which preferred its horses and buggies to the newfangled Model T eventually displaced the older generation, and the Model T generation was supplanted in its turn, tastes change in amps.

Line 6 has been around since 1996. You have more and more bands who use modelers to good effect, and as people learn how to use them better (not running amp sim into amp, for example), the results sound better and better. Few people really argue that Tosin sounded bad when he recorded with a POD.

 

[JohnnyMcFly]

Yes exactly it boils down to taste, and Explorer, you point about the model T is bang on. Can models replicate a near sound, yes for sure they can. Is it 100%? absolutely not, and we'll not see that until we have 5 gazillion ghz cpu haha. Actually even maybe not then. So the point is to embrace virtual amps for their strengths and get them recognized on their own, not keep making imitations of the real thing, but original digital amps. Lets see some real innovation in this area and so long as companies keep putting out the same stuff year after year, I'm afraid we won't see the same level of innovation we see in the hardware world.