The attempt to destroy the nation state

[Ordacleaphobia]

That's a myth.

We have so much of what I already mentioned (space, jobs, food, etc.) that most people would likely not even know if, for example, we took in 1 million people.



That's not likely where people would go.

Right now, the more populous states and counties are typically more liberal and progressive and overall more welcoming to immigrants than sparsely populated states.

If we mandated a level of decorum on the national level the spread of new immigrants wouldn't be so concentrated on already densely populated areas.

Basically, if you're a new immigrant your choice is California where you'll be welcomed, or South Dakota where you won't be, you're going to go for California.

Again, this is social and political engineering at work.



I've heard this "they'll replace us" argument for decades and it's tripe.

Who are these people being forced out of their homes by changing demographics?

The only ones I know of are those who move by choice because they have a bias against those not like them, see: white flight to the suburbs.

Also, somewhat off topic, but it's hard to take the "we were here first" argument seriously in a country that treats indigenous folks like garbage.

I think you might be misunderstanding part of what I said- I didn't say that any of this is happening now, or even that any of these possibilities are realistic. I'm just saying that it's possible.
1 million people would be a drop in the bucket compared to something that would cause these types of effects, you'd need millions. Even still, my point isn't the "they'll replace us" talking point, it's more the concern that the people that already lived there could potentially have their daily lives affected in a way that they didn't want. To fix it, they would need to relocate.

I do still disagree though on the notion that people wouldn't flock to areas that are already populated. I would assume that if you make the decision that you want to go to X country, you would want to go to a city that defines X country to you. In the case of the US, this would probably be somewhere like DC, New York, San Francisco, etc. Bigger areas also typically means more opportunities for employment, which would be a chief concern for any immigrant. People go where the money is. Just my 2 cents.

Could you clarify what you mean here? It kind of reads like a stream of consciousness.

....because it totally was. Sitting around at work with nothing to do
Basically, you had proposed that the cause of most of the conflict that was mentioned was due to colonialism, and people being forcefully grouped together. They didn't want to play nice, so of course they're going to be at each other's necks. Makes sense.
But, what that made me think, was that if group X was already there, and group Y immigrated, and group X didn't want group Y there, how would that be any different? They would still be "forcibly" grouped together; since not everyone can easily move house.

Still though, I think the notion that that type of conflict could lead to war is very unrealistic since we're talking about a hypothetical scenario where we opened our borders in the first place.

 

[AxeHappy]

Why would a supra national government destroy national governments? Federal Governments didn't destroy State/Provincial Governments which didn't destroy Municipal/Local governments.

I wonder if there were a bunch of reactionaries saying shit such as, "WE CAN'T LET OUR CITIES STATES BECOME NATION STATES!! IT WILL DESTROY OUR CULTURE," many moons ago. Probably.

 

[Drew]

You seem very obsessed with skin colour and "race". I am speaking about nations. The colour of your skin is not what defines your nation. There is no "white nation" or "white culture". There are many nations of peoples with white skin but I have never understood the american obsession with the colour of the human skin. What defines a nation has more to do with language, history and culture. I would like to keep the discussion more focused on ideas and statecraft and not colours.

Furthermore I understand from your previous post that you believe Europe to be a country. I would like to clarify that Europe is a continent which consists of multiple countries. Almost all of the countries of Europe were affected more by the world wars than America was. The resistance against nazi occupation in the different countries of Europe stemmed from nationalism. The free peoples of Europe were being occupied by a socialist regime enforced by a foreign nation. They did not want a foreign power controlling their destiny, they wanted to be free. This is why Americans were later seen as "liberators". They liberated free nation states from foreign occupants. Nationalism is what has fed resistance sentiment in all occupied territories in the history of the world. A recent example would be the Israel/palestine issue. If you are not a nationalist you are susceptible to the belief that it is alright to occupy foreign land and foreign peoples and impose your rule upon them. Since you have no moral compass.

Maybe nationalism is the cure to the endless wars perpetrated by americans against other nations in the world?

Ok, kiddie gloves are coming off.

I'm talking about race, because you're talking about race, even if you're not willing to admit it openly. "Culture" is a dog-whistle on the part of white nationalists, because while they can't talk about skin color without sounding like a racist bastard, they can make vague, general arguments about the need to protect a common culture, or speak the same language, or whatever, and have everyone else who's a white nationalist know perfectly well that you're saying you don't want immigrants who are a different race than you.

I'm perfectly aware Europe is a continent, and I have no idea why you seem to be under the impression I was calling it a country.

I'm also trying to make heads or tails of the load of crap you're saying about the Nazi resistance being "nationalist." Countries, not free nation states, were occupied, and plenty of non-jewish citiizens of those countries had no problem colluding with the Nazis so long as it was only the Jews (and the homosexuals... and the Gypsies... and all the other "undesireables"...) who were getting sent off to other concentration camps. Meanwhile, it's pretty hard to deny that the Nazis were an Aryan Nationalist party hell-bent on European domination, so I'm not really sure where you're getting this "it's impossible to occupy a country as a nationalist." The Italian fascists didn't seem to have much trouble with it, either. Neither, for that matter, did the French, who you paint as some "free nation state that could not possibly believe it's ok to occupy foreign land," yet during WWII occupied about a quarter of Africa and used their occupied territories as a base of operations to try to retake France itself. In short, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, other than having a hard-on for nationalism.

So, are you denying you're a member of the Sweden Democrats?

 

[AxeHappy]

Ok, kiddie gloves are coming off.

I'm talking about race, because you're talking about race, even if you're not willing to admit it openly. "Culture" is a dog-whistle on the part of white nationalists,

Less a dog whistle and more a fog horn I'd say.

 

[Explorer]

I've been waiting for Simon Poo to clearly repudiate the Sweden Democrats, and to state where they are clearly wrong and where he differs from them. Being able to be crystal clear on the "culture" stuff when he has been fairly unclear and inspecific up to this pont will help him differentiate himself, as the Nazi and white supremacist folks have a hard time actually coming up with unique and original reasoning instead of parotted ideas.

Or, it will be Simon's failed attempt to argue against what has been so obvious.

 

[DudeManBrother]

Given that North America is a continent full of Countries, my quick thought on the land mass commonly thought of as The United States of America: it is comprised of 48 independent Countries being called nation states or states. To be a national is to be a state Citizen. This is by birthright.

Now, the District of Columbia aka the United States is a city-state and has its own citizens and chose “Nationals” as another term for citizens of the United States (federal citizens). Grammar is the only way to easily recognize the differences. There are state Citizens (national) and there are citizens of the United States (as well as US citizens and U.S. Citizens depending on status) (National).

So with the prerequisite in mind: IMO to be a national is the ideal status for all “Americans”; but to be a National is (for everyone not born in the District of Columbia or the 7 Possessions) to disassociate with your birthright nation state in favor of a city-state.

 

[Drew]

Oh, WEIRD. Someone calls him on his shit, and still no reply.

I've been waiting for Simon Poo to clearly repudiate the Sweden Democrats, and to state where they are clearly wrong and where he differs from them. Being able to be crystal clear on the "culture" stuff when he has been fairly unclear and in specific up to this pont will help him differentiate himself, as the Nazi and white supremacist folks have a hard time actually coming up with unique and original reasoning instead of parotted ideas.

Or, it will be Simon's failed attempt to argue against what has been so obvious.

Yeah, same. Though, personally, I'm betting he's a member of the Sweden Democrats.

 

[Explorer]

Given that North America is a continent full of Countries, my quick thought on the land mass commonly thought of as The United States of America: it is comprised of 48 independent Countries being called nation states or states. To be a national is to be a state Citizen. This is by birthright.

So with the prerequisite in mind: IMO to be a national is the ideal status for all “Americans”; but to be a National is (for everyone not born in the District of Columbia or the 7 Possessions) to disassociate with your birthright nation state in favor of a city-state.

You're really stretching. A US citizen can become a citizen of whatever US city, state and/or territory just by moving there and establishing residency. You can move from Puerto Rico to Wisconsin, for example.

You seem to like the term "nation-state," without actually knowing what it refers to., and also seem to want residency to be something epic. As you're from Seattle, you might want to see if anyone you know has lived in, say, Portland, and get some perspective on how not-epic and mundane such a move actually is.

I'm from the DC area, and lots of people I know undertook the process which you view as so epic by just looking on Craigslist for a new apartment. There, you have the choice of moving from state to state, from state to DC, and from DC to state. It's pretty trivial, even if you apparently don't know that.

 

[Explorer]

Oh, WEIRD. Someone calls him on his shit, and still no reply.

Though, personally, I'm betting he's a member of the Sweden Democrats.

I figured that the factual proof of Muslim Vikings would make his brain and/or buttocks clench, and i also knew that the facts would then lead him to an undefendable position regarding what one could defend as Swedish culture. There's no way to draw a line from the current neo-nazi white supremacist BS back to a purely white culture, given that such a culture ended centuries ago, and that undermines the arguments used to defend the anti-immigrant nonsense the neo-nazi Sweden Democrats promote.

Still, Simon might give it a shot, in spite of the lack of sources to cut and paste.

I doubt it, though. We've seen this sort disappear instead of being able to muster the resources for a mental challenge like this.

 

[DudeManBrother]

You're really stretching. A US citizen can become a citizen of whatever US city, state and/or territory just by moving there and establishing residency. You can move from Puerto Rico to Wisconsin, for example.

You seem to like the term "nation-state," without actually knowing what it refers to., and also seem to want residency to be something epic. As you're from Seattle, you might want to see if anyone you know has lived in, say, Portland, and get some perspective on how not-epic and mundane such a move actually is.

I'm from the DC area, and lots of people I know undertook the process which you view as so epic by just looking on Craigslist for a new apartment. There, you have the choice of moving from state to state, from state to DC, and from DC to state. It's pretty trivial, even if you apparently don't know that.

I’m fully aware that US citizens can move to different States and establish residency as well as dual citizenship. I was making a point in the sense of 8 USC 1101(a)21 vs (a)22; or Chisholm v. Georgia, or Piqua Branch Bank v. Knoup, where the Supreme Court determined that the United States can be, in certain senses, considered a country, and form a society; but will never be a nation, under the law of nations. It’s why they form a federal government and not a national government. Even if they want to define terms like National, or national of the United States; they aren’t legitimate nationals as the United States isn’t a nation.

 

[cwhitey2]

That's a myth.

We have so much of what I already mentioned (space, jobs, food, etc.) that most people would likely not even know if, for example, we took in 1 million people.

My small 'city' noticed when only a couple family's were shipped here from NYC to use our welfare system (like a total of 6 or something).

http://wnbf.com/broome-county-to-nyc-stop-sending-your-homeless-to-us/

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/sout...nding_your_homeless_people_to_upstate_ny.html

 

[MaxOfMetal]

My small 'city' noticed when only a couple family's were shipped here from NYC to use our welfare system (like a total of 6 or something).

http://wnbf.com/broome-county-to-nyc-stop-sending-your-homeless-to-us/

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/sout...nding_your_homeless_people_to_upstate_ny.html

Do you have anything other than that it was "noticed"? Is it having an actual impact?

Neither of your sources site any numbers, nor do they link any.

This article: https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ould-send-more-homeless-families-upstate/amp/

Seems to indicate that while five families from NYC were relocated to Broome County, around 20 are currently in NYC, from Broome County. Seems like Broome made out better in this deal.

Additionally, it points to the majority of the aid being from federal coffers, not from Broome County or its tax payers.

 

[cwhitey2]

Do you have anything other than that it was "noticed"? Is it having an actual impact?

Neither of your sources site any numbers, nor do they link any.

This article: https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ould-send-more-homeless-families-upstate/amp/

Seems to indicate that while five families from NYC were relocated to Broome County, around 20 are currently in NYC, from Broome County. Seems like Broome made out better in this deal.

Additionally, it points to the majority of the aid being from federal coffers, not from Broome County or its tax payers.

I can't find any other sources.

But, considering the population difference (45k vs 8.6 million), 5 family's is more noticeable then then 20. This impact was big enough for use to try and sue NYC.

Also: "Garnar contends that the New York City agency works to move homeless people to other counties knowing they don't intend to return to the city. He said once they are "abandoned" by the Human Resources Administration, they seek public assistance from the targeted county."


The only thing I see being federally funded are food stamps and Medicaid. Who's going to pick up the rent once they leave? My county doesn't exactly have any money. We can barely care for the poor/homeless that are locals.


All I'm trying to say is that maybe not every place will notice an impact, but we did.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I can't find any other sources.

But, considering the population difference (45k vs 8.6 million), 5 family's is more noticeable then then 20. This impact was big enough for use to try and sue NYC.

Also: "Garnar contends that the New York City agency works to move homeless people to other counties knowing they don't intend to return to the city. He said once they are "abandoned" by the Human Resources Administration, they seek public assistance from the targeted county."


The only thing I see being federally funded are food stamps and Medicaid. Who's going to pick up the rent once they leave? My county doesn't exactly have any money. We can barely care for the poor/homeless that are locals.

So, no? Nothing?

I'm a numbers guy. Give me the info. Without knowing what the impact, if any, there doesn't really seem to be anything to this other than a small town doesn't want any city riff raff.

All I'm trying to say is that maybe not every place will notice an impact, but we did.

Good thing I didn't say "all".

But, if you're going to talk about "impact" please demonstrate it.

If you take the time to find the source, I will read it. I looked through a page of Google and found nothing.

 

[cwhitey2]

So, no? Nothing?

I'm a numbers guy. Give me the info. Without knowing what the impact, if any, there doesn't really seem to be anything to this other than a small town doesn't want any city riff raff.



Good thing I didn't say "all".

But, if you're going to talk about "impact" please demonstrate it.

If you take the time to find the source, I will read it. I looked through a page of Google and found nothing.

As I stated there are no sources or I would gladly provide them. there is a total of 6 articles when searching google.

I still stand by my point (without sources) whether you agree with it or not...

 

[MaxOfMetal]

As I stated there are no sources or I would gladly provide them. there is a total of 6 articles when searching google.

I still stand by my point (without sources) whether you agree with it or not...

It's not about agreeing with you or not. Don't make this personal. This is about facts and the discussion of them. Without facts there is no discussion. I can find an unsourced article that says practically anything.

I'd be willing to go as far as saying that there is likely some form of impact of these five families on the estimated 21,150 households in Binghamton. But, I doubt that it's much. So little that it's probably insignificant.

But, since we don't know, it's silly to use it as an argument for or against anything.

 

[cwhitey2]

It's not about agreeing with you or not. Don't make this personal. This is about facts and the discussion of them. Without facts there is no discussion. I can find an unsourced article that says practically anything.

I'd be willing to go as far as saying that there is likely some form of impact of these five families on the estimated 21,150 households in Binghamton. But, I doubt that it's much. So little that it's probably insignificant.

But, since we don't know, it's silly to use it as an argument for or against anything.

Fair enough.

 

[Drew]

I’m fully aware that US citizens can move to different States and establish residency as well as dual citizenship. I was making a point in the sense of 8 USC 1101(a)21 vs (a)22; or Chisholm v. Georgia, or Piqua Branch Bank v. Knoup, where the Supreme Court determined that the United States can be, in certain senses, considered a country, and form a society; but will never be a nation, under the law of nations. It’s why they form a federal government and not a national government. Even if they want to define terms like National, or national of the United States; they aren’t legitimate nationals as the United States isn’t a nation.

Keep that in mind the next time you use your Washington passport to visit a foreign country.

 

[DudeManBrother]

Keep that in mind the next time you use your Washington passport to visit a foreign country.

Everybody has the option of choosing US citizenship or state Citizenship (national) on their passport; so thanks, I will?

 

[Drew]

Everybody has the option of choosing US citizenship or state Citizenship (national) on their passport; so thanks, I will?

Citation for that? I'll admit, that sounded implausible enough that I actually bothered to track down the application online, and, well, I have no idea what you're talking about.