The Carvin / Kiesel thread

[Lord Voldemort]

Well this is awkward. I'm not used to this.

 

[SDMFVan]

I've had the privilege of speaking with Paul in person quite a few times, and he is an awkward guy, because he's a nerd (like most of us). He's very passionate about his beliefs in guitar design, which I agree can come off sounding condescending at times, but I also believe he has the resume to back up what he's saying.

One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.

 

[diagrammatiks]

One time Paul was asked about lefty guitars...

And he said that lefty guitars shouldn’t exist. Which sure I agree with.

But they made a production lefty se that’s around pretty regularly.

 

[Albake21]

I've had the privilege of speaking with Paul in person quite a few times, and he is an awkward guy, because he's a nerd (like most of us). He's very passionate about his beliefs in guitar design, which I agree can come off sounding condescending at times, but I also believe he has the resume to back up what he's saying.

One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.

This is very accurate to when I got to meet him. He's just a guitar nerd like the rest of us.

 

[ramses]

Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right".

Also know as "reality distortion field."

Not surprising from a CEO of a successful business (I love both my Artist Package CU 24 and my Hollow II).

EDIT to slightly stay on-topic ... I think I'll have an extra glass of wine this Friday, to order a Kiesel Delos 7 with no remorse.

 

[spudmunkey]

Ooh...now I want a custom dark red metallic Delos or GH3. Chrome hardware, black pickguard, white pickups and knobs. Ebony board.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

This is very accurate to when I got to meet him. He's just a guitar nerd like the rest of us.

And that's kind of what I mean. Granted, the videos I've seen him in I'd imagine are especially eloquent, but the guy just seems like a complete guitar freak. Everything he says is deep, and can be explained with multiple layers of organic thought.

Jeff just seems like a salesman, comparably.

It's all good though, Kiesel still makes one hell of an instrument. I'd just been defending Jeff for a long time, and getting into PRS has opened my eyes a little to an alternative to Jeff, and I get what a lot of your are saying now.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Joss should have told them they were non returnable option 50s bro

 

[spudmunkey]

I would definitely say that Paul is a "players'" guitar maker, while Jeff is more of a "gear buyers'" guitar maker. What i mean is, jeff seems to have a very 30,000ft knowledge and personal experience with woods, etc. Like...the way he describes tone, etc, he uses very simple, basic terms. Paul seems like someone that would pull out an oscilloscope. Not that it's a bad thing, and I think it's lucky that Kiesel, even while putting aesthetics over most else, they still crank out a high quality product under that aesthetic veneer (not literally veneer...although their tops have gotten thinner and thinner, so it's only barely not "veneer").

A part of that: we all know Paul plays guitar. Jeff has said he does, but of course nobody has ever seen him. Which is fine...I mean, I've been playing for 30 years, and there's only 2 videos. And Leo Fender famously didn't play guitar. And I don't even know if Mark Kiesel did (Lowell did, or at least lap steel). Paul's perspective and the way he talks about the instruments defintely seems be of a player. Jeff's perspective seems to reflect more of the superficial aspects of guitar building.

 

[xzacx]

And that's kind of what I mean. Granted, the videos I've seen him in I'd imagine are especially eloquent, but the guy just seems like a complete guitar freak. Everything he says is deep, and can be explained with multiple layers of organic thought.

Jeff just seems like a salesman, comparably.

It's all good though, Kiesel still makes one hell of an instrument. I'd just been defending Jeff for a long time, and getting into PRS has opened my eyes a little to an alternative to Jeff, and I get what a lot of your are saying now.

Yeah man, you should see what they say on TGP about Paul—he probably gets more hate there than Jeff does here. Personally I find him likable enough. He does have a bit of a crazy old man vibe, but I think he believes at least some of what he's saying, whereas like you said—Jeff just seems like a salesman who would tell you whatever you wanna hear if it meant he could sell you a guitar.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

I would definitely say that Paul is a "players'" guitar maker, while Jeff is more of a "gear buyers'" guitar maker. What i mean is, jeff seems to have a very 30,000ft knowledge and personal experience with woods, etc. Like...the way he describes tone, etc, he uses very simple, basic terms. Paul seems like someone that would pull out an oscilloscope. Not that it's a bad thing, and I think it's lucky that Kiesel, even while putting aesthetics over most else, they still crank out a high quality product under that aesthetic veneer (not literally veneer...although their tops have gotten thinner and thinner, so it's only barely not "veneer").

A part of that: we all know Paul plays guitar. Jeff has said he does, but of course nobody has ever seen him. Which is fine...I mean, I've been playing for 30 years, and there's only 2 videos. And Leo Fender famously didn't play guitar. And I don't even know if Mark Kiesel did (Lowell did, or at least lap steel). Paul's perspective and the way he talks about the instruments defintely seems be of a player. Jeff's perspective seems to reflect more of the superficial aspects of guitar building.

I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.

 

[Albake21]

I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.

One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.

 

[strangers]

I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.

I definitely agree with this, even compared to the smaller heel on older PRS guitars. My K series is really comfortable, much more so than my custom 24.

 

[spudmunkey]

One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.

Agreed. They only do that on the control cavity though, and not the trem cavity (although there is a production efficiency reason for that).

I think there are some things, though, that just don't have the same engineering behind them...though with that said, they have SOOOOOOOOO much more variety in their product catalog it's hard to compare them.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

One fine detail that Kiesel does that I REALLY wish other companies did. The back plate screws don't go directly into the wood, they go into metal screws/lugs? (sorry can't think of the word) Basically I can take off the back door unlimited times without the screw getting stripped. It's such a nice touch.

yeah, they use threaded inserts for the cavity. I wish they'd do it for direct mount pickups/necks as well, it's a really great feature that I'd like to see on more guitars. They basically negate all the headaches that come from repeatedly tinkering with guitars ime (ie stripping screws or the screw holes).
I know mayones does it on some guitars, and my knightros came with threaded inserts for both the control cavity/pickup cavities, but those are very different companies in terms of output/scale.

 

[laxu]

One example: The last time I talked to him was at a PRS employee party I got invited to, and he was telling my friend and I how guitars with generally symmetrical bodies (PRS Santana, Les Paul) sound better than guitars with asymmetrical bodies (Explorer, Firebird). He wasn't presenting this as an opinion, in his mind it's a fact. Initially my reaction was "this is insane", but once he starts explaining how he's tested how soundwaves travel through different bodies and how different frequencies are generated, you start thinking "damn, maybe he's right". For what it's worth I still love the way my Firebird sounds, but he made a convincing argument.

This description to me sounds like someone who is good at bullshitting and making it seem like it's based on fact. I get that vibe from Paul in general and it's hard to separate if what he states is fact or opinion. He seems like the guy who delivers what he says with such calm confidence that it's easy to believe.

There is precious little actual scientific testing (e.g. big enough sample size, well setup blind tests, ensuring repeatability of tests etc) done in the guitar world in the first place so it's hard to prove it one way or the other beyond anecdotes from various builders and players. Not to mention a lot of things like how an amp feels to play are not something that translates to recording easily.

I don't know man, jeff has talked in the past about why he likes such aggressive contours, and it's because they're more comfortable when playing, which I wholeheartedly agree with based off previous experience with my vaders/my buddy's aries. Some of the color combos that come out of their shop/jeff's hands are questionable, but they do plenty of things that appeal to players (ie the aforementioned contours/relocating knobs/good upper fret access/better neck heels than on my prs). I know some will argue the neck heel on a PRS doesn't matter, but it does, it kind of gets in the way ime.

I think Kiesel does not get enough credit for the functionality of their designs. I feel that the Osiris and Zeus are pretty hideous as aesthetic designs but I'm sure at the same time they are very comfortable to play. When I initially saw the Aries the thoughts in my mind were "Block heel, in this age? And wtf is with that top that doesn't follow the contours of the body?" But as I looked into it more I started to appreciate a lot of things about it, especially seeing the guitar in videos where you don't see it straight from the front. Well, now I have owned an Aries AM7 for a few years and it is one of the most comfortable, best playing and sounding guitars I own.

My beef with Kiesel is that they don't make a multiscale Vader bass. The Vader is by far the best looking headless they make.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

I think Kiesel does not get enough credit for the functionality of their designs. I feel that the Osiris and Zeus are pretty hideous as aesthetic designs but I'm sure at the same time they are very comfortable to play. When I initially saw the Aries the thoughts in my mind were "Block heel, in this age? And wtf is with that top that doesn't follow the contours of the body?" But as I looked into it more I started to appreciate a lot of things about it, especially seeing the guitar in videos where you don't see it straight from the front. Well, now I have owned an Aries AM7 for a few years and it is one of the most comfortable, best playing and sounding guitars I own.

My beef with Kiesel is that they don't make a multiscale Vader bass. The Vader is by far the best looking headless they make.

The vader is extremely comfortable. It's a better design than the ormsby goliath or the bodens that I've owned in terms of overall functionality/comfort imo.
The zeus bass looks good. personally I don't see the appeal of the vanquish, it looks like a guitar that was left too long in the microwave and melted.

 

[strangers]

The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.

I wish production companies would figure out a way to adopt a deeper bolt-on design like Dell'isola had. Obviously, he wasn't doing production runs, but it seems like other manufacturers should be able to mimic that. That has more access than I can use, while being bolt-on.

On a side note, I wonder what ever happened to Dell'isola, he was hyped a bunch and then disappeared, not even sure if there was a BRJ style crash around him.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.

I wish production companies would figure out a way to adopt a deeper bolt-on design like Dell'isola had. Obviously, he wasn't doing production runs, but it seems like other manufacturers should be able to mimic that. That has more access than I can use, while being bolt-on.

On a side note, I wonder what ever happened to Dell'isola, he was hyped a bunch and then disappeared, not even sure if there was a BRJ style crash around him.

i think he just quit building, it doesn't look like he's been active since 2014.

 

[laxu]

The Kiesel block heel just doesn't work for me, ugly and still in the way. Which is unfortunate, since they don't seem to be invested in actively developing more set/through guitars.

I on the other hand was surprised that it doesn't get in the way at all. While for example Strandbergs have a more contoured heel, it protrudes quite far up the neck and is more noticeable than the slim but block shaped heel on my Kiesel.

PRS heel seems to be the way it is because they believe that it sounds different if there is less wood in that area. I don't know how true that is.