The official Sabre Guitars Thread
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narad
Progressive metal and politics
Dude, these aren't the logistics that a bunch of guys on the internet have to work out. These are the logistics you have to work out if you're planning to be a one-man guitar shop.
One thing that bears repeating to all the small shops: these guys that take a leap of faith to put in these early orders when you're basically going entirely on word-of-mouth and a couple photos -- those guys are your biggest fans. You screw up with them then you've really screwed up, because they were going to be the guys using those guitars to record their songs, post youtube demos, post NGDs, rave about it to their friends, and cherish that thing for life. When all is silent and the thing shows up in the classifieds a month after you got it, we all know what's up.
TuffyKohler
sawdust generator
the issue with sabre is not at all that this took awhile, or that I didn't get pictures or updates that I requested.
the issue is that chris did not do what he said he would, repeatedly. after due dates came and went, we got 'reasons' why. Chris then reset expectations, and promised pics and updates, none of which happened. dues dates again came and went, with no communication from Chris, and it still took weeks to get a response via Facebook, email and phone.
I don't get the rationale that luthiers are busy and can't communicate to their customers for weeks at a time, that's total bull.....
oh, nice tool wall though, time for pics of that crap.
the issue is that chris did not do what he said he would, repeatedly. after due dates came and went, we got 'reasons' why. Chris then reset expectations, and promised pics and updates, none of which happened. dues dates again came and went, with no communication from Chris, and it still took weeks to get a response via Facebook, email and phone.
I don't get the rationale that luthiers are busy and can't communicate to their customers for weeks at a time, that's total bull.....
oh, nice tool wall though, time for pics of that crap.
Speculum Speculorum
Well-Known Member
This whole thing sure is starting to smell like a junior of some sorts... one that might go by the moniker... Ricooooooo....
UnderTheSign
Well-Known Member
I think this one destroys every excuse that was given for his way of business. What do you mean he's busy, has kids to feed, whatever? He had time to arrange his tools and post pretty pictures on Facebook. That means he has time to email customers who have paid IN FULL.
While I can sort of get into it the whole "this isn't some 9-5 job" thing is mostly rubbish. I've worked for people who, when I went home after a 7-7 day, stayed hours longer all the time. When they got home or sat down for lunch, they still took time to send their emails and make their calls. It's part of the job and that's all there is to it.
I can't stress enough how much you need to get your ducks in a row and prepare for the worst.
The more time that passes the lower your chance of getting anything. If you start the process now and contact the credit cards/banks now you'll be in a better position.
It's worth noting, that if you start the case you don't have to follow through, you can just put in the information and get things ready. So get to it, and start the process in the hopes you won't have to finish it.
Dude, what's not worrying about that?
Sabre is avoiding his customers. Plain and simple. To top it off, a proper batch build is done for the pricing and simplification of specs, the instruments and their payments should be unrelated to each other.
No one is too busy to reply to an email. No one. Ever.
Do you know how chargebacks work?
It's not an instant "get your money back" button, it opens a case and Sabre will be able to respond.
The only folks who don't want to take credit cards are either greedy and don't want to deal with fees, or are shady and don't expect themselves to be able to deliver.
This is the worst post I've ever read on this forum ever. Ever. It's rare to see such skewed thought regarding builders, the blaming the customer argument.
What's your relation to Sabre?
That's not the customers' problem. He needs to let folks know there are issues. Like it or not, it's his responsibility. Being an adult is hard.
I really tried to make an argument against this, but frankly couldn't. I'm going to be watching this very carefully.
downburst82
Well-Known Member
I worked with a guy that broke his jaw in 2 places on a Friday evening and was at work on Monday. Was he uncomfortable? Of course. It wasn't an ideal situation but he had to work through it because he had a family to support.
Tommehnet
Well-Known Member
I very much do. In my line of work I deal with them all the time.
In some cases it is a 'get your money back back', or at least a 'put your money in limbo' button. It very much depends on the credit card processor. Some, most notably Paypal, 'forfeit' or debit the money without notice whilst the investigation is pending. Some even apply a hefty chargeback fee on top of the money withdrawn, so they become out of pocket more-so than they were originally.
Banks in the UK even freeze accounts if a bank transfer is questioned, though this is usually in the cases of unauthorized payments and not upheld agreements.
The fact he is working? I was suggesting his priority was actually working, and not digressing by sending emails with the news/update. It's a long turn around time, I expect some customers are on the spot with ETAs, sending emails on the minute requesting information.
It all depends on your line of work. Sure, that doesn't prohibit someone replying to an email ever, and I don't deny he couldn't have found an opportunity to eventually drop a reply email, but he has, I've received replies recently on occasion. Not all the time, but that could explain the email problems (which he has called me asking to send the email/reply again) or he is selectively choosing emails to reply to, possibly ones that have an actual update (instead of repeating the same news over and over).
I don't want to be seen as promoting bad/absent customer service. I do hope to see some improvement in response and/or a transparency of build status. He updated the build list recently with the ETA times. Doing that on the regular with update times would be an improvement in itself, even possibly 'form emails' when progress has occurred on the guitar (if the customer has requested such) with an updated ETA time if necessary.
Here in the US, that's not quite how it works, and I'm assuming since the customer here is based in the US he's using a card from over here.
I've worked with Visa, AmEx, and MasterCard over situations like this and they've all given the seller/business a chance to respond.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that he's not talking to the customer. I'll say it again, there is no reason to no reply and it's unfortunate that a step like this is needed to just sent a simple "Hey, I'm still here, sorry." email.
That's bull..... Sorry. It just is. I've seen about half a dozen, if not more, builders do this. They selectively reply to emails, which is NEVER a good sign.
Even a "Hey, no updates right now" is more than Sabre is doing.
Another cop out. Selective emails is NEVER, EVER a good thing and often signs of more strife to come. When builders are behind the 8 ball there's a tendency to just talk to the clients that have good news, or who they can get support from.
Go to the giant BRJ BFR cluster.... thread, start around post 500, there are a lot of similarities. Do the same with the Roter Fanned Run thread.
Already there.
JuliusJahn
Luthier
We live in a day and age where you can send a few emails and check your facebook feed while using the bathroom. I think the "Im too busy for email" thing is a load of bull these days.
Got some updates? Take the 45 seconds to snap a pic of it on the bench, message it to the person with "got some work done today
" and they'll be happy and probably shoot back a compliment or send you a payment. If he had internet issues, take a few hours out of the shop, go to the local cafe and use their wifi while you drink your morning coffee.
Got some updates? Take the 45 seconds to snap a pic of it on the bench, message it to the person with "got some work done today
" and they'll be happy and probably shoot back a compliment or send you a payment. If he had internet issues, take a few hours out of the shop, go to the local cafe and use their wifi while you drink your morning coffee.JuliusJahn
Luthier
Double post, delete please.
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I can't stress enough how much you need to get your ducks in a row and prepare for the worst.
The more time that passes the lower your chance of getting anything. If you start the process now and contact the credit cards/banks now you'll be in a better position.
It's worth noting, that if you start the case you don't have to follow through, you can just put in the information and get things ready. So get to it, and start the process in the hopes you won't have to finish it.
Dude, what's not worrying about that?
Sabre is avoiding his customers. Plain and simple. To top it off, a proper batch build is done for the pricing and simplification of specs, the instruments and their payments should be unrelated to each other.
No one is too busy to reply to an email. No one. Ever.
Do you know how chargebacks work?
It's not an instant "get your money back" button, it opens a case and Sabre will be able to respond.
The only folks who don't want to take credit cards are either greedy and don't want to deal with fees, or are shady and don't expect themselves to be able to deliver.
This is the worst post I've ever read on this forum ever. Ever. It's rare to see such skewed thought regarding builders, the blaming the customer argument.
What's your relation to Sabre?
That's not the customers' problem. He needs to let folks know there are issues. Like it or not, it's his responsibility. Being an adult is hard.
I really tried to make an argument against this, but frankly couldn't. I'm going to be watching this very carefully.
I have read a lot worse I can tell you that! I have seen so much bashing of builders and quite a lot of 'info' is false. Sometimes things have to be looked on the other side. The guitar was delivered, the communication wasn't great but it worked out - I know he explained to many about possible delays.
My Relation to Sabre was that I was a customer and got a production series Talon from the first batch, I talk to Christian now and again about 'stuff'! First time I met him was at the guitar show a month or so ago. I have never had an issue with communication with him. Thats when he mentioned to me about delays from a couple of suppliers on the production and custom series.
My production series was late but i was prepared for that and was explained to me. All I am saying is that sometimes other things affect peoples work. I doubt the payment was related to someone else's build, is there really much truth to that?
On the issue of customers did you know about the recent Blackmachine FF8 Doug has built? A customer ordered it and paid for it. However he hadn't provided an address to ship it to. Doug had tried in various ways to get through to him and no answer. Too busy to reply to his emails?
Customers have placed orders with some companies, paid a deposit and then said they can't afford the next payment when they have been give months warning that its coming up. Argued with companies that they can't pay this right now and want deposits back on one of a kind custom made guitar.
Communication is key and checking emails and replying takes time and this is on both sides. I know quite a few companies say they will send a couple of updates and thats it when ordering customs. They have also had issues with customers in the same vain and they ask them every week for an update.
My best days at work are when the internet is down or emails aren't working these are the days I actually get most of my work done!
So everyone's guitar here has shipped?
So he can talk to you, but not other customers? You don't find that a little odd?
You tell me, as only those defending him have said that, and I doubt the guy waiting for his guitar is lying.
You're getting off topic. What one builder does has no bearing on the situation here. Nice try though.
That's the nature of the business. If you can't handle it at this small level that doesn't bode well for the future.
That said, the deposit should cover all costs of the build. That's the whole point. That way there is no loss if the buyer backs out and you can just throw the guitar up as an in-stock.
I'll argue that the time it takes is minuscule and worth it. Once again, customers can be annoying, but that's life. If you're running a business and are customer facing these are the realities.
Complaining about customers is probably the least professional thing a builder can do.
Sounds like you need to work on time management.
I get it, Sabre has done you well and you're grateful and you feel like you have to stick up for your bro, but you're doing much more harm than good at this point. Seeing as he's still talking to you, I implore you to convince him to talk to his customers and be honest. His paying customers have a right to know what's going on. If things are good or bad.
On a more professional note, he needs to get his .... together if he wants to continue using this forum for promotion and advertising.
So everyone's guitar here has shipped?
So he can talk to you, but not other customers? You don't find that a little odd?
You tell me, as only those defending him have said that, and I doubt the guy waiting for his guitar is lying.
You're getting off topic. What one builder does has no bearing on the situation here. Nice try though.
That's the nature of the business. If you can't handle it at this small level that doesn't bode well for the future.
That said, the deposit should cover all costs of the build. That's the whole point. That way there is no loss if the buyer backs out and you can just throw the guitar up as an in-stock.
I'll argue that the time it takes is minuscule and worth it. Once again, customers can be annoying, but that's life. If you're running a business and are customer facing these are the realities.
Complaining about customers is probably the least professional thing a builder can do.
Sounds like you need to work on time management.
I get it, Sabre has done you well and you're grateful and you feel like you have to stick up for your bro, but you're doing much more harm than good at this point. Seeing as he's still talking to you, I implore you to convince him to talk to his customers and be honest. His paying customers have a right to know what's going on. If things are good or bad.
On a more professional note, he needs to get his .... together if he wants to continue using this forum for promotion and advertising.
Thanks for being personal! Nice from a mod.
I have spoken to him a few times yes....via the phone regarding the guitar show. Giving a customer a phone call every time theres an update pretty impossible. I feel bad that i have even spoken to him.... I agree about complaining about customers but actually a couple of well known companies have done that recently and had positive responses. Recent one being on Facebook regarding a run promoted here - I am glad he did it.
A customer complaining it was late but not saying anything about the guitar isn't right surely. I am only defending as I had a very positive experience, I know few others who have too. Not allowed my own opinion as it was positive experience? He is actually trying to help out the Siggery situation but I guess isn't looking for praise when not writing in the forum.
It's not as easy as throwing custom stock up online. Some guitars have custom inlays et, Pickups ordered, whatever.
Using this forum is his decision. Paying for the service of advertising and promoting in a forum might not work for him as he doesn't have the time to update the forum as often as he would like. (reading back on previous posts). He now has a mod trying to call him out and not trying to contact him and ask him to sort it out in a professional manner. it seems you are so well versed on this for him to continue to pay for the service.
Thanks for being personal! Nice from a mod.
I take how forum members here are treated very seriously and personally.
No one is asking for phone calls every ten minutes and you know it. Asking for a simple update after numerous attempts is completely different.
Stop going off of what other builders are doing. Once again, that's neither here or there.
Making good on one guitar doesn't mean it's all good.
You're free to share your opinions, just as you're free to get called out on them. The door swings both ways.
Yes it is. Builders do it all the time. If the build wasn't planned out well and there's too huge of a balance not covered by the deposit there are issues with the business, not the situation.
It's not my job to hound the guy and don't think for a second that it is. I don't make a dime working here and I have no product competing to sell. It doesn't get more unbiased than that.
Like I said, you have the Sabre Bat-Phone.
Feel free to continue this spiral into lunacy, it's all you. I'm done for now and think I got my point across. As I said, I'll be watching this to make sure we don't have another runaway builder on our hands.
Fred the Shred
Shrederick
With all due respect, one thing is certain: a vast amount of luthiers I see mentioned on these forums share a trait of being simultaneously proficient instrument builders and terrible at communication and management.
While I am not as unforgiving pertaining personal impediments such as illness or injury that prevents the job from getting done in time pushing the deadlines slightly further, there are ways to let the customer know before the dark cloud of uncertainty settles and the average delivery is delayed by an absurd amount of time that, unless the shop did burn (a luthier was plighted by this nightmare not too long ago) or the man has been in a coma for over a year or something along those lines, has no justification other than dismal management skills dictating impossible delivery times and the continuous acceptance of orders when one is blinded by the sweet tingling of incoming deposits and completely ignores the fact of the necessary workload being unsustainable for the projected deadlines even if he was working 24/7.
The harsh reality is that many companies easily get hyped up over here, showing fancy instruments that give people GAS, and the orders pour in. As the list grows, not once does the ordering get suspended to ensure a smooth transition from one batch to the other, not once are customers given an accurate, definitive time frame when deadlines go out the window, and even less so in timely fashion (I'm fairly certain that one KNOWS his customer's guitar is not ready in time when it's a slab of ash amidst a pile of other identical slabs two weeks after the deadline went by), and typically a train of BS excuses for horrid communication (if any) and a new, equally unreasonable deadline follows the derail.
It happens so often with the companies leaping from obscurity to considerable popularity via strategic advertisement moves and fancy pics on social networks that it is not uncommon for one to burst the bubble and eclipse itself every once in a while, leaving people without their money and giving honest and well organized luthiers a crap reputation in the process. It's really dumbfounding that one can be self-centered enough to believe every single life event is a justification for what is, in essence, the idea of loads of cash completely obscuring the good sense needed to uphold commitments and maintain a sustained growth curve.
tl;dr - luthiery is both artistry and a BUSINESS. I can't commit to 100 sessions in the same week as anyone would know this to be completely impossible, so how can a company assume it is possible to build a huge list of guitars in what would be 10% of the time per guitar or something like that? Bad. Business. Practices.
While I am not as unforgiving pertaining personal impediments such as illness or injury that prevents the job from getting done in time pushing the deadlines slightly further, there are ways to let the customer know before the dark cloud of uncertainty settles and the average delivery is delayed by an absurd amount of time that, unless the shop did burn (a luthier was plighted by this nightmare not too long ago) or the man has been in a coma for over a year or something along those lines, has no justification other than dismal management skills dictating impossible delivery times and the continuous acceptance of orders when one is blinded by the sweet tingling of incoming deposits and completely ignores the fact of the necessary workload being unsustainable for the projected deadlines even if he was working 24/7.
The harsh reality is that many companies easily get hyped up over here, showing fancy instruments that give people GAS, and the orders pour in. As the list grows, not once does the ordering get suspended to ensure a smooth transition from one batch to the other, not once are customers given an accurate, definitive time frame when deadlines go out the window, and even less so in timely fashion (I'm fairly certain that one KNOWS his customer's guitar is not ready in time when it's a slab of ash amidst a pile of other identical slabs two weeks after the deadline went by), and typically a train of BS excuses for horrid communication (if any) and a new, equally unreasonable deadline follows the derail.
It happens so often with the companies leaping from obscurity to considerable popularity via strategic advertisement moves and fancy pics on social networks that it is not uncommon for one to burst the bubble and eclipse itself every once in a while, leaving people without their money and giving honest and well organized luthiers a crap reputation in the process. It's really dumbfounding that one can be self-centered enough to believe every single life event is a justification for what is, in essence, the idea of loads of cash completely obscuring the good sense needed to uphold commitments and maintain a sustained growth curve.
tl;dr - luthiery is both artistry and a BUSINESS. I can't commit to 100 sessions in the same week as anyone would know this to be completely impossible, so how can a company assume it is possible to build a huge list of guitars in what would be 10% of the time per guitar or something like that? Bad. Business. Practices.
TuffyKohler
sawdust generator
You don't get it. I don't care that the guitar was late. I don't care that I didn't get unsolicited updates.
When due dates came and went, and I heard nothing, I reached out, and got excuses, promises and new due dates, all after SEVERAL attempts via different methods to communicate. This repeated itself over and over. I only reached out AFTER DUE DATES PASSED.
Again, MY COMPLAINT IS SABRE SUCKS AT COMMUNICATING to existing, PAID customers.
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