This is the most racist campaign ad I have ever seen.

[Konfyouzd]

@orb- Nothing wrong w/ it the way you look at it.

I think ppl have just taken a different point of view on it as ppl who typically advocate that all American speak English (which again is fine in theory) are the slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, moonshine drunken D students of life who barely speak it themselves.

Your point of view is totally valid, though.

Also, the immigrants that come here and only speak their own language are just as annoying to me as the Americans who only speak "English" and expect everyone else around them to do the same. Neither is making any effort to facilitate communication. Fail.

However, immigrants that don't speak English prove useful as I can't say I haven't tried pretending I only speak Spanish when confronted by an authority figure.

 

[Survival101]

Slightly on topic, but I thought this was really cool...
ELP Projects | Rosetta Stone

Rosetta Stone is making a program for all of these endangered Native American languages for the sake of preservation. I would personally absolutely love to learn one of these at some point.

 

[Customisbetter]

I love how i never have to type much in these threads because Orb does the typing for me.

 

[synrgy]

I'm looking at YOU Synrgy.

You raise fair and valid points, as usual.

I will fully admit that much of my previously posted feeling here is to do with my own prejudice: When I hear people make statements like this guy makes in this video, I immediately presume that if I give them another few breaths, they will also say that abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil, and that homo-sapiens coexisted with dinosaurs.

(display found at the Creation Museum in Kentucky)

Removing that prejudice from the equation for a moment, I still don't like the position. While I agree with almost all of what you said (truly, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass here) I still feel that to deny someone license to drive (or any other task they are completely qualified for) based on the language they speak is fundamentally wrong. If they can *read* English, that's good enough for me. Nobody is supposed to be talking while they're driving, anyway.

If the goal here is to encourage non-English speakers to learn the language, I feel that a much better step in the right direction would be to create more and/or give better funding to existing ESL (For the uninitiated, that's 'English as a Second Language') courses at the community level.

Also, let's be honest with ourselves; English is a BITCH, and most of us who use it as a FIRST language still don't fully understand it or speak it particularly well.

Yes, it bothers me that we see increasing amounts of catering to Spanish (or Korean, for that matter) language speakers in our daily lives, (translations on many signs/menus/etc) but if you break it all down to a human level I quite simply don't believe that trying to deny rights or services to non-English speakers is going to help motivate them to learn the language. I actually see it exacerbating the problem, because it will likely instill an even deeper feeling of 'well if you're gonna be like that, then fuck you' in those most affected by it.

Still keeping my prejudices at bay, I'd also like to say I'd bet cash money that Alabama has SEVERAL more pressing financial hemorrhages than this one. IMHO, he's clearly just trying to pander to all the extreme/fringe constituents who have been getting all the public voice lately. It's a gambit many reps on both sides of the aisle are playing right now, and the jury is still out as to how it's going to pay off come November.

That's where my prejudice comes back in.. It's not so much this specific issue that I'm bothered by, as it is the increasing amounts of exposure the extreme fringes in America are getting these days, and the increasing amounts of pandering the political machine is giving them. Both sides are guilty. I hope you know well enough by now that I'm no Dem lover. My votes more often than not come down to which guy I think is *more* ignorant than the other, understanding that they're both idiots no matter who I choose.

So that's my 2 cents at the moment; I can identify with your stated principles, but I don't think they directly translate to this specific issue/proposed legislation. Homeboy still gets a big from me, but I don't live in Alabama so at least it isn't my problem on a local level.

 

[mmr007]

I'm surrounded by those people...in fact they're looking at me right now

how about this one......it's for a congressional seat in NORTH CAROLINA

 

[Randy]

If you have to use a painting to illustrate your point, I think your argument may be a tad outdated.

 

[orb451]

I immediately presume that if I give them another few breaths, they will also say that abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil, and that homo-sapiens coexisted with dinosaurs.

That had me rolling. Yeah I really don't get or share those views and feel bad for big dummies that do... such is life I guess But I get where you're coming from. It's hard not to have such a reaction, but when you look at it the way I do, I see what he's saying and to me, it makes sense.

Removing that prejudice from the equation for a moment, I still don't like the position. While I agree with almost all of what you said (truly, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass here) I still feel that to deny someone license to drive (or any other task they are completely qualified for) based on the language they speak is fundamentally wrong. If they can *read* English, that's good enough for me. Nobody is supposed to be talking while they're driving, anyway.

Yeah smoke up my ass is a no-go, however butter in my ass gets a big hells yeah, as do lollipops in my mouth and watching two people fuck on film. But that's a whole other thread.

Humour aside though, I think the gist of what he's saying, or at least what I believe is, if you want to speak, read or write your native language, that's great, all the power to you. You could and probably should. Nothing wrong with that. But, when you go to the government for assistance, or to exercise rights or privileges as is the case with a Drivers License, then you *should* learn the language the test is originally written in. In this case, English. You should not *expect* that the test be given in your native language. And that's where the sense of entitlement comes into play.

I see it EVERYWHERE. Everyone wants something or other because they feel they are OWED it. Someone, somewhere, long ago, took a shit on you, your culture, your people, your land, your money, your chest, etc and because of that, you feel like the world at large owes you something. Maybe money, maybe respect, maybe dignity or a clean tissue. Whatever the case may be, my contention is that people need to take responsibility for their own lives and their own well being. If ignoring the past dooms one to repeat it, then LIVING in the past dooms one to continue it.

In other words, and this is from someone who LOVES holding grudges, there are times when you have let go and move forward. And that's not an indictment of Native Americans, nor of Blacks, nor any minority, anywhere, that's ever been slaughtered, silenced or slighted by an opposing force. Just that to me, holding on to things too long keeps things stagnant. And yeah, it's hard to let go when things are continually brought up, that goes for BOTH sides of an issue.

If the goal here is to encourage non-English speakers to learn the language, I feel that a much better step in the right direction would be to create more and/or give better funding to existing ESL (For the uninitiated, that's 'English as a Second Language') courses at the community level.

Also, let's be honest with ourselves; English is a BITCH, and most of us who use it as a FIRST language still don't fully understand it or speak it particularly well.

Well I think it goes back to overtures and efforts. The fact that we even *have* ESL programs out there should speak *volumes* about our willingness to accommodate new English speakers. Am I wrong in assuming that these programs are provided at little or no cost to those willing to take them? And am I wrong in assuming that the majority of those taking the courses are self-motivated and eager to better themselves and their opportunities? If so, please let me know, I ask sincerely and without sarcasm. But those programs are still voluntary, are they not?

And that's another problem, if you give people a choice with anything, they, like water and electricity, will flow in the path of least resistance. I agree that learning English may be a pain in the ass. The older one gets, the harder learning damned near anything new becomes. Some people are naturally gifted and can pick up languages with no problem. Guitar players are like that. There's always some bastard that can just pick it up, ala Shawn Lane and just *play* anything they think of or hear. Guthrie Govan is another example. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Whereas I pick up a guitar and I struggle trying to learn new songs.

I won't argue that learning English is a pain in the ass for immigrants. But, as English remains the primary language for the US, they *should* fucking learn it. Do I expect them to major in English in college? Or become the next Robert Frost? No, absolutely not, but the smallest overtures on *their* part would be a welcomed change. It seems to me, and I know a lot of immigrants, though not all , that they feel learning English is both hard, and is robbing them of their culture and heritage.

They are *less* "whoever they were 5 minutes ago" by learning the language. And they are embarrassed because they speak slowly or with an accent. So because they feel like they're losing their heritage, and because they feel self-conscious, they refuse to learn or make any further efforts. My neighbor is Mexican, as is his family, he's got 15 people living in his little condo and I hear them speaking both Spanish and English regularly. Whenever I see the grandma out on the sidewalk I say hello, she answers me "Buenos Tardes". She feels more comfortable responding with that, when she clearly understands the hello. And you know what? That's fine with me.

I don't care if she's speaking Spanish to me, or in front of me with her friends. But if she wants welfare, or government help, or a drivers license or what have you, from a state or federal authority, then I feel it is *her* duty, to do what is necessary in order to take a test, fill out a form or ask a question in English. Again, not expecting her to master the language or anything, just have some *basic* fluency in both reading, writing and speaking. And I mean *basic*. Just enough to get you by. I really don't think that that is totally and wholly unreasonable, nor do I think that automatically means a person is racist or xenophobic. If it does, then great, I'm a racist and a xenophobe. Oh fucking well.

...but if you break it all down to a human level I quite simply don't believe that trying to deny rights or services to non-English speakers is going to help motivate them to learn the language. I actually see it exacerbating the problem, because it will likely instill an even deeper feeling of 'well if you're gonna be like that, then fuck you' in those most affected by it.

And that's the thing, they *haven't* been motivated at all to learn the language. No one has said they *must* learn it in the past. It was always a culturally accepted norm, that "When in Rome, Do as the Romans do" or something along those lines. It's been more or less a loose guideline to live by. But it is one that has met increasing resistance from some minorities and immigrants. That's why I think what they need is a swift kick in the ass. Metaphorically speaking that is. The longer we pander to their wants and desires for the easy and quick fix, the more we end up with lazy, self serving, self-entitled assholes. And I for one, don't want anymore of them here or anywhere, than there already are.

Life is tough, it sucks, but that's the way it goes. Learning another language is harder the older you get, that's also just the way it goes.

That's where my prejudice comes back in.. It's not so much this specific issue that I'm bothered by, as it is the increasing amounts of exposure the extreme fringes in America are getting these days, and the increasing amounts of pandering the political machine is giving them. Both sides are guilty. I hope you know well enough by now that I'm no Dem lover. My votes more often than not come down to which guy I think is *more* ignorant than the other, understanding that they're both idiots no matter who I choose.

Well the old adage is something like "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". I think that's what's happening lately. The vocal few are *always* the ones getting exposure, be it right or wrong. I think the nastiness from the Republicans and Conservatives comes from a misguided moral compass. They *think* they're doing the right thing, and for themselves, maybe they are, but in doing so, they are dragging a lot of people that disagree with them kicking and screaming. They've also finally figured out that the current crop of Democrats are a bunch of pussies, so they've opted to try and steam-roll them whenever possible and whenever something new comes to the table from Democrats, the Republicans feel their best bet is to just "say no" over and over again till they go away.

And the worst part is, it's worked. Maybe not in spades, but it's worked for them and so you're seeing a resurgence of "old school" mindset. People are in love with the baby boomer generation post WWII, that golden era of late 40's/50's time when things were going well, family was important, blah blah blah. You know the schpeel, that whole "pleasantville" view of the 50's and how everything was perfect and real life was just like Leave it to Beaver.

I think the more Democrats and Liberals try to push things through, legislation-wise, regardless of merit, the more the Republicans will continue to push back the other way. Just for the sake of it. Not realizing it's only hurting themselves in the long run. And the longer Democrats let people walk on them, or vacillate on important issues, back down and otherwise acquiesce to the will of their Republican opponents, the longer things will continue as they are.

Does anyone here really believe the two parties are *that* different in terms of getting things done? Who they cater to, or what they'll do to serve their own interests? That's a topic for another discussion I guess.

 

[mmr007]

Maybe I'm confused but I spent most of my life in southern california where they have....well, a rather large hispanic non english speaking population and it has never affected me...it has never hampered or hindered me.

I, for one, would rather have foreigners have the ability to assimilate into our country and be able to function by having access to things in their native language until they learn english.

Where I live now there is a huge german population (rocket center of US) and I have no problem if they have all the access they want to documents and such in german until they learn english. The company they work for back home may have sent them and their family to Huntsville to work on a rocket project for 3 years....they have to learn fluent english first? I don't agree

 

[gunshow86de]

I'm going to have to agree with Orb (huge shock to anyone that's seen us post in the same thread in the Politics and Current Events section). Of course, I can't watch the video at work, it may very well be racist. But, strictly from a public safety issue, I think it's a very good idea to have English-only driving tests. Either that, or require every road sign to be in English and in Spanish.

 

[mmr007]

oh and just as a reminder....recently a high school math teacher 1/2 an hour away from where I live used assassinating Obama with a rifle to teach his students about angles and trajectory

He was not suspended or fired

This is still a racist state

 

[orb451]

oh and just as a reminder....recently a high school math teacher 1/2 an hour away from where I live used assassinating Obama with a rifle to teach his students about angles and trajectory

He was not suspended or fired

This is still a racist state

Is his example a poorly chosen one? Perhaps. Is it inherently racist? No. You're reading into things that you *want* to be there. Let me guess, the teacher was also a part time Klansman too, right? Or an ultra-right wing, militia loving separatist too?

Would his example for the class be in poor taste if it were George W. Bush? Would it be in poor taste if *he* himself were Black, when using GWB as an example? How about Obama?

A poor example should be a poor example regardless. Would you be calling Alabama a "racist state" if he were Black and had chosen GWB? Rush Limbaugh? JFK? Justice Sotomayor? Justice Kagan? Someone Gay perhaps? Lesbian?

Regardless of his chosen example, are students not supposed to learn angles and trajectory? Or is that only when it doesn't involve firearms? Or only when it involves firearms, but not when it involves the killing of someone?

 

[Randy]

Straw man argument is straw man.

 

[orb451]

Straw Man? I'm using other examples to ask a QUESTION. What part of *that* is a straw man? If he's got clarification on my questions, why don't you let him answer. Unless you're talking to someone else. In which case, carry on.

 

[Randy]

No, I'm talking to you. The "if he was FUCKING BLACK WOULD YOU BE SAYING THAT!?" thing has been done to death. For decades.

 

[Randy]

For the record, the clearly African-American support of Prop. 8 was bigoted. That kinda shit knows no boundaries. Call a spade a spade. This guy is preying upon the "fear of other people" that prevails in that state and places like it.

 

[leonardo7]

I know nothing about him or his message and I havent read the whole thread but If you cant read English then how are you supposed to read street signs? If you cant read the street signs then you are a risk to me on the road.

 

[orb451]

No, I'm talking to you. The "if he was FUCKING BLACK WOULD YOU BE SAYING THAT!?" thing has been done to death. For decades.

Right, so again, what part of that is a straw man argument? Isn't a straw man argument where someone states something, someone else comes along and instead of attacking what was stated, they in turn attack some other view point that they assert is shared by the first person?

It's a series of questions Randy, not an attack. I wanted clarification, preferably from him, since he's the one that made the initial statement. I'm not going to make any assumptions about his point of view until he's clarified things. And note that this WAY off topic at this point, so maybe we should drop it and stick to the topic at hand.

 

[mmr007]

The reason I say it's racist is because
#1 The history of this state...church bombings, klan, lynchings, police turning firehoses and attack dogs on law abiding blacks who wanted equal rights, national guard called out after the gov refused to comply with desgregation....so alabama doesn't have history on it's side

#2 I've lived here 6 years and it usually takes about five minutes of talking to someone before they start inserting racist comments casually to judge my reception to them....no I'm not a good ole boy

#3The teacher was not disciplined, indicating an acceptance of his example...please remember any advocation of death to the president is a serious offense. This got more national media attention than local. I only saw one newspaper that picked it up.

#4 It wasn't political because Obama is almost as republican and middle of the road as Bush...but Obama is black, so I truely believe this was racially motivated

Could I be wrong? Maybe...but reread what I just typed and I wouldn't take that bet

 

[Origin]

What the fuck did I just watch? God the south is fucked up.

 

[orb451]

The reason I say it's racist is because
#1 The history of this state...church bombings, klan, lynchings, police turning firehoses and attack dogs on law abiding blacks who wanted equal rights, national guard called out after the gov refused to comply with desgregation....so alabama doesn't have history on it's side

#2 I've lived here 6 years and it usually takes about five minutes of talking to someone before they start inserting racist comments casually to judge my reception to them....no I'm not a good ole boy

#3The teacher was not disciplined, indicating an acceptance of his example...please remember any advocation of death to the president is a serious offense. This got more national media attention than local. I only saw one newspaper that picked it up.

#4 It wasn't political because Obama is almost as republican and middle of the road as Bush...but Obama is black, so I truely believe this was racially motivated

Could I be wrong? Maybe...but reread what I just typed and I wouldn't take that bet

Thank YOU for clarifying YOUR position.

I would agree with your first point, the rest I would chalk up to your own views and experiences. And that's fair, nothing wrong with that. Even if I disagree with them to varying degrees.