This is the most racist campaign ad I have ever seen.

[synrgy]

Syn, I really don't think the DMV's requirements for getting a driver's license are as ardently adhered to as you may think. At least as it relates to being a citizen.

I'm sure in some areas they are, but I'd wager that it varies.

And where are you getting all these jobs and unemployment numbers from? I'm not arguing that Alabama may have high unemployment, I can't say, but with respect to your claim that having a DMV test in English will suddenly put hundreds or even thousands statewide out of work, where are you getting that from? Again, I ask out of curiosity and without sarcasm.

Seriously? I provided a link with the claim.. If you click on the link for the line "Alabama's unemployment is somewhere around 10%", it takes you directly to where I found the data... Here's the link again, since you didn't bother with it the first time.

I'm quickly becoming convinced that you guys don't really read my posts at all.

On the point of the number of jobs, it was simply intuition, but since you insist on having me re-tread it as if it's not just common sense, here's a random link that lists DMV locations in Alabama that took me 2 seconds to find on Google. I count approximately 80 locations on that list. Unless one wants to convince me that there is only one translator at every location, we're talking about at least a few hundred employees providing translation services for the Alabama DMV.

Further, if we're not talking about hundreds to thousands of employees, then how, exactly, is making this change going to save so much money for the State? You tell me.

We're nailing it down now; I feel like this is progress.. In terms of the number of jobs related to the State's budget, it HAS to be one or the other:

Option A) There are only a few of these jobs, in which case it won't save the State any significant amount of money, therefore this representative is completely full of shit and the issue is more steeped in bigotry than it is in economics.

Option B) There are enough of these jobs that cutting them would make a significant change to the State's budget, ergo State-wide unemployment would climb at least a couple of percentage points if the jobs were cut, therefore this representative is completely fiscally/economically handicapped. (Unless you want to make the case that adding to unemployment during recession is an economically sound decision? I'm all ears..)

So which is it? That he's full of shit, or that he's an idiot? Not worth defending either way, dude.

Your half-hearted counter point about how you 'don't think they regulate those rules at the DMV very much' is really grasping for straws. I must say I'm pretty surprised that you're willingly taking such a glaringly weak stance on that specific point. I provided a link to the policies directly from the National DMV website, and your response is 'oh, I don't think they enforce those rules'?? That's the best you can come up with? Really? We're talking about Federal law here; Not some State law about not being allowed to carry an Alligator in one's handbag or not being allowed to sodomize one's sexual partner.

If you maybe want to assert that there are plenty of non-licensed drivers on the road, I wouldn't argue, but such a point is irrelevant.

I think I've told this story here before, but: On appearances, I'm as blatantly White-Bread American as it gets (Seriously, if I were only a few inches taller I'd physically be a poster boy for the Aryan Nation with my blonde hair and blue eyes..), and when I was mugged (license and social security card both stolen in process) several years ago it took me 2 years to get another ID because they make it THAT difficult to 'prove' you're eligible for licensing.

My original birth certificate that has my fucking baby foot prints on it wasn't acceptable because they've apparently changed the notary system since 1980, and I had to present documents with the new notary system to be eligible for identification. Trying to get the newly notarized birth certificate without a photo ID? Almost impossible. Trying to get a photo ID without the birth certificate or social security card? Also impossible. It was a Catch 22 that took me just over 2 years, multiple government agencies, and the physical presence of my then 70 year old father and several of his own identification documents to resolve. And mind you, that wasn't even for a license. It was just for a fucking photo ID.

 

[Randy]

Eh. Its ALL assumption isn't it.

Again, for us who believe the aim of the ad is deliberately racist, that would require a suspension of disbelief to not assume that. I'll give credit to the perspective you and Orb have on this thing and say maybe the ad is to be taken entirely at face value but as far as how it personally resonates, I have to agree with Mike... I can't watch this video in a vacuum outside of the national and state climate which would imply there's more to this than that.

It's no more presumptive to assume there's something more going on in this than just what he says verbatim than it is to assume there's not. No matter how adamant the poster is, anything said in this thread with regard of interpreting the video is not factual... it's opinion and it's subjective. I know that sounds like common sense but going back and reading the last, oh, 2 pages worth I'm noticing the bulk of the debate has devolved into "NO! That's just your opinion" which, well, is just to be assumed.

TL;DR version: I and some other people find the video to have a racial overtone but YMMV.

 

[mmr007]

Eh. Its ALL assumption isn't it.

some assumptions are more obvious than others....if you break into my house in the middle of the night, I would assume it's to rob me...I might be wrong, but again, that's a bet i wouldn't make.

These ads are made because the candidates know there is a populace that will be very receptive at a minimum to exhuberant about the message.

The facts are these...within 20 or 30 years, according to the Pew Research Center, whites will be a minority in the US at 47% of the population. There will be the dominant plurality, but still will be outnumbered by all other minorities combined.

We have all been told this ad naseum. That is why you have so many people saying "we need to take our country back"....what they mean is back from what they feel now...threatened by hispanics on every street corner and some black guy from kenya in the white house.

These politicians prey on irrational fears of this situation. You cannot, I repeat cannot look at these ads, speeches or declarations in a vacuum. You must look at the political climate we exist in and from that you can gain insight and understanding to why these candidates make these ads

Syn....yes people look at your posts, but I assume possibly, that many people don't understand what they are looking at

 

[Randy]

It's like here, we don't allow in immigrants that don't have skills they can offer. .

It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.

EDIT: And after a quick search:

You must be able to speak, read, write, and understand basic English; unless you are at least fifty (50) years of age and have been a lawful permanent resident for at least twenty (20) years; or you are at least fifty-five (55) years of age and have been a lawful permanent resident for at least fifteen (15) years; or you have a permanent physical or developmental disability or mental impairment making it impossible for you to meet the English language requirement.

US Naturalization Requirements

 

[eaeolian]

Again, for us who believe the aim of the ad is deliberately racist, that would require a suspension of disbelief to not assume that. I'll give credit to the perspective you and Orb have on this thing and say maybe the ad is to be taken entirely at face value but as far as how it personally resonates, I have to agree with Mike... I can't watch this video in a vacuum outside of the national and state climate which would imply there's more to this than that.

I'll stand by my statements about it being naive to view this as anything but an anti-immigrant stance. The racism part is debatable, though as someone with a first-hand knowledge of Southern politics in general, it hard for me to see this as anything but propaganda about brown people that don't speak English.

Oh, and to answer Orb's earlier question, being cynical about people has nothing to do with it: This ad isn't intended to change anyone's mind, so the people that are going to see through it have already done so. That's not who this ad is targeted at - it's targeted at people who already agree with him. I'll bet he's not nearly as malleable in his position as the aforementioned Ms. Whitman, who simply wants to use social issues to be elected the Governor of California so she can represent her real constituency - rich people. That's another political debate, though.

 

[eaeolian]

It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.

That doesn't mean they can read a DMV test. Hell, sometimes *I* can't read them.

 

[synrgy]

More fun, blatant Racism from a current Republican nominee:

Rachel Maddow Show

By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.

 

[orb451]

Seriously? I provided a link with the claim.. If you click on the link for the line "Alabama's unemployment is somewhere around 10%", it takes you directly to where I found the data... Here's the link again, since you didn't bother with it the first time.

I'm quickly becoming convinced that you guys don't really read my posts at all.

On the point of the number of jobs, it was simply intuition, but since you insist on having me re-tread it as if it's not just common sense, here's a random link that lists DMV locations in Alabama that took me 2 seconds to find on Google. I count approximately 80 locations on that list. Unless one wants to convince me that there is only one translator at every location, we're talking about at least a few hundred employees providing translation services for the Alabama DMV.

Further, if we're not talking about hundreds to thousands of employees, then how, exactly, is making this change going to save so much money for the State? You tell me.

We're nailing it down now; I feel like this is progress.. In terms of the number of jobs related to the State's budget, it HAS to be one or the other:

Option A) There are only a few of these jobs, in which case it won't save the State any significant amount of money, therefore this representative is completely full of shit and the issue is more steeped in bigotry than it is in economics.

Option B) There are enough of these jobs that cutting them would make a significant change to the State's budget, ergo State-wide unemployment would climb at least a couple of percentage points if the jobs were cut, therefore this representative is completely fiscally/economically handicapped. (Unless you want to make the case that adding to unemployment during recession is an economically sound decision? I'm all ears..)

So which is it? That he's full of shit, or that he's an idiot? Not worth defending either way, dude.

Your half-hearted counter point about how you 'don't think they regulate those rules at the DMV very much' is really grasping for straws. I must say I'm pretty surprised that you're willingly taking such a glaringly weak stance on that specific point. I provided a link to the policies directly from the National DMV website, and your response is 'oh, I don't think they enforce those rules'?? That's the best you can come up with? Really? We're talking about Federal law here; Not some State law about not being allowed to carry an Alligator in one's handbag or not being allowed to sodomize one's sexual partner.

If you maybe want to assert that there are plenty of non-licensed drivers on the road, I wouldn't argue, but such a point is irrelevant.

I think I've told this story here before, but: On appearances, I'm as blatantly White-Bread American as it gets (Seriously, if I were only a few inches taller I'd physically be a poster boy for the Aryan Nation with my blonde hair and blue eyes..), and when I was mugged (license and social security card both stolen in process) several years ago it took me 2 years to get another ID because they make it THAT difficult to 'prove' you're eligible for licensing.

My original birth certificate that has my fucking baby foot prints on it wasn't acceptable because they've apparently changed the notary system since 1980, and I had to present documents with the new notary system to be eligible for identification. Trying to get the newly notarized birth certificate without a photo ID? Almost impossible. Trying to get a photo ID without the birth certificate or social security card? Also impossible. It was a Catch 22 that took me just over 2 years, multiple government agencies, and the physical presence of my then 70 year old father and several of his own identification documents to resolve. And mind you, that wasn't even for a license. It was just for a fucking photo ID.

Syn, I do read your posts and I value your opinion and the information you share. Like some others on here, I post while at work. Sometimes I'll be in the middle of something work-wise, whilst trying to read through some of the comments or for that matter post a response. So for that, I apologize. What you're saying and what you've presented are also valid points regarding the unemployment.

I see that, and I understand that yes, if you're cutting jobs during an already weakened local economy, that at face value that in and of itself is *not* a great idea.

However, I think it's *possible*, that if he cuts the jobs in one area, he *might* be providing jobs in another, unrelated area. Something to balance things out. Maybe not though, in which case, if he's cutting jobs and not adding any, anywhere else, then yeah, that's a bad idea. And I believe the issue he's talking about is the WRITTEN DMV driver's license test. That in Alabama it is currently provided in WRITTEN form, in 12 different languages. I believe what he's saying is that if he's elected, he's going to give the written test in ONE language, English.

And I'm sorry but yes, if he has a cadre of translators at every DMV that are there solely to communicate with people, that that is shameful. It's wasteful spending. My guess is, the reality is they have a *few* people that speak multiple languages at each location. And this, once again, goes back to immigrants and their expectations.

Since we both agree now, that the only people getting services at the DMV *should* be legal US citizens. My point about them not enforcing the rules as strongly may seem like grasping at straws outside of California. Rest assured we've had a number of incidents whereby DMV employees were making REAL, AUTHENTIC DMV licenses and selling them to illegal immigrants and other law breakers. Not exactly what you'd call following the rules you linked to.

That being said though, then the onus should be on *the legal US citizens* to learn the language that is spoken and written by the majority of Americans. How in the christ is that so unfair? The street names are in English, the signs with written words on them are in English, what is the big deal? Note, I've never said that English is the *official* language of the US. I know that it's not, but it's the language spoken by the majority.

And as I said in another post, if that makes me xenophobic and racist, I'm fine with that. I've been called worse. My view is, let all the brown/yellow/green/blue people into the country that you want to. I *want* diversity and I *want* the US to be a melting pot of cultures. I've no problems with that in the least. But for the love all that is holy, if you want to come to this country, do so *legally*. Don't jump across the border and then demand rights and services because you knocked up your wife 5 times so she can sap up tax payer resources while she sits on her mountainous ass watching Telemundo or Sabado Gigante. And *if* you want to be one of those slags, have the god damned common courtesy and common decency to learn the fucking language that the majority of people here speak.

It's not rocket science.

And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair. So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?

It's quid pro quo.

And I'm not trying water down any issues, I'm speaking about *the* issue at hand. You all see it as xenophobia. As Eeaolian pointed out, it's playing to an audience. And you're right E, the people this ad targets *already* feel the way they do. This *isn't* going to change anyone's minds and isn't much of a campaign platform, I don't think it's meant to be. And I don't see how a simple DMV test being provided in English is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to race or immigration relations. I'm well aware that nothing happens in a vacuum. That's a delightfully insightful thought. I just don't see this one little ad, suddenly causing an uprising or race-war. Nor do I think it's that big of a rallying cry for the "they took err' jobsssss!" crowd. As with just about everything in life, it's subject to interpretation.

The word racist also gets tossed around here like it's going out of style. People really need to revisit the definition and understand that not *every* thing you disagree with is automatically a *racist* statement. Nor is talking about immigration solely about xenophobes vs. non-xenophobes. Nor is disliking Obama or his policies an automatic qualifier for racist tendencies.

 

[orb451]

More fun, blatant Racism from a current Republican nominee:

Rachel Maddow Show

By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.

And wow, *that* guy is EPIC!!! And for the record, at least having read and watched the excerpts in that video, that guy is waaaaaaaaaaaaay the fuck out to lunch. So no, I couldn't/wouldn't even *try* rationalize or justify those kinds of statements.

 

[bostjan]

It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.

EDIT: And after a quick search:



US Naturalization Requirements

...and incidentally

También le examinaran su abilidad para leer, escribir y hablar ingles. Sin embargo, sí en el día de su examen usted tiene más de 50 años de edad y ha sido un residente permanente legal por 20 años ó más, ó sí usted tiene 55 años de edad y ha sido un residente permanente legal por 15 años ó más, no necesitara tomar el examen de ingles. Ademas, también podra hacer toda la entrevista en el idioma que escoja

in spanish

I just thought that was interesting that the requirements are in spanish as well. Not saying that it's a bad idea to do so, in fact, I think that it's good to have them listed this way also.

 

[Konfyouzd]

so if you're old and have been here forever (which means you probably understand the english language pretty well by now even if you don't "speak" it to great) then you don't have to take the test...

hmm... sounds like what Mike said... anti-immigration.

 

[eaeolian]

And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair. So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?

Until you remove the incentive - i.e., getting a job without documentation is easy, and employers like it because they're not subject to labor laws so it's cheaper - you will not fix the illegal problem. Period. It's the elephant in the room no one wants to see - companies (especially major corporations) like hiring illegals because it helps the bottom line.

I've been on record many times stating that the way to fix this problem is simple: the fine for hiring an illegal alien in the United States is 1% of the gross receipts (not profits, cash intake) of the employer PER ILLEGAL HIRED, and those fines go to pay for the enforcement of the law and nothing else.

Simple, effective - one major corporation might be put out of business, but the point would be made.

Anyway, I digress. This ad is racist, but subtly so. Certainly nowhere near as blatantly as the one in the Maddow clip. Yowza.

 

[orb451]

Until you remove the incentive - i.e., getting a job without documentation is easy, and employers like it because they're not subject to labor laws so it's cheaper - you will not fix the illegal problem. Period. It's the elephant in the room no one wants to see - companies (especially major corporations) like hiring illegals because it helps the bottom line.

We agree then to an extent. I see that elephant and I acknowledge that US employers are *partly* to blame and *should* be held strictly accountable. Your penalties sound reasonable, if a little light. To me, I'd go balls to the walls with them. 1 strike and you're out. The feds come in and find undocumented illegal aliens working there? I don't care if it's 1 person or a 100, the company gets shut down, business license revoked, and the liquidation of assets, pensions and CEO golden parachutes go towards immigration reform and enforcement.

But yeah, that's not fucking likely to happen in this lifetime or the next so...

Also note that it is and has been illegal for ANY companies to employ illegal aliens for decades. It's just that the laws haven't been enforced. Sure in recent years there's been a *few* token raids, but come on, it's a numbers game. Like the drug trade, for every successful seizure, there's countless others that slip by. Same with companies and hiring illegal immigrants. Go to any Home Depot in SoCal for examples of how *thoroughly* the law is enforced.

EDIT: Point being, immigration reform or *fixing* the system, is more than just *one* thing. It's a big problem that needs a multifaceted attack in order to solve it effectively and permanently.

 

[synrgy]

And I believe the issue he's talking about is the WRITTEN DMV driver's license test. That in Alabama it is currently provided in WRITTEN form, in 12 different languages. I believe what he's saying is that if he's elected, he's going to give the written test in ONE language, English.

If that's the case, I don't find it nearly as offensive as I would otherwise. If one can't read our street signs, one shouldn't be on our roads. I feel that he does himself a great disservice by not making this point abundantly clear. Then again, back to the pandering issue, he probably doesn't want that point made clear. Too logical; not divisive enough for the campaign trail..

And I'm sorry but yes, if he has a cadre of translators at every DMV that are there solely to communicate with people, that that is shameful. It's wasteful spending. My guess is, the reality is they have a *few* people that speak multiple languages at each location. And this, once again, goes back to immigrants and their expectations.

Since we both agree now, that the only people getting services at the DMV *should* be legal US citizens. My point about them not enforcing the rules as strongly may seem like grasping at straws outside of California. Rest assured we've had a number of incidents whereby DMV employees were making REAL, AUTHENTIC DMV licenses and selling them to illegal immigrants and other law breakers. Not exactly what you'd call following the rules you linked to.

Actually, it would seem we don't agree, exactly. I never said *only* US Citizens. Others on the eligible list as I pointed out include non-citizens here on work or student visas, and also includes refugees. All of the above are people I don't feel fair to discriminate against based on the language they speak. They're here to do a job we need them for, or to escape political/social tyranny elsewhere.

Therein lies my biggest problem with this proposed legislation. Let's just say as a hypothetical example that we have a guy here on a work visa from Lithuania, and he's a non-English-speaking medical scientist who's working on cure for Cancer or AIDS or some such. Do you believe he shouldn't be able to drive to and from the job we hired him for just because he doesn't speak our language? That's the point I'm trying to hammer home; this legislation doesn't have anything to do with the stereotypical immigrants that so much of our country is angry with currently.

That being said though, then the onus should be on *the legal US citizens* to learn the language that is spoken and written by the majority of Americans. How in the christ is that so unfair? The street names are in English, the signs with written words on them are in English, what is the big deal? Note, I've never said that English is the *official* language of the US. I know that it's not, but it's the language spoken by the majority.

This is the point we're mostly agreed on, and I'll re-state it: If one can't read our street signs, one shouldn't be allowed to drive here.

And as I said in another post, if that makes me xenophobic and racist, I'm fine with that. I've been called worse. My view is, let all the brown/yellow/green/blue people into the country that you want to. I *want* diversity and I *want* the US to be a melting pot of cultures. I've no problems with that in the least. But for the love all that is holy, if you want to come to this country, do so *legally*. Don't jump across the border and then demand rights and services because you knocked up your wife 5 times so she can sap up tax payer resources while she sits on her mountainous ass watching Telemundo or Sabado Gigante. And *if* you want to be one of those slags, have the god damned common courtesy and common decency to learn the fucking language that the majority of people here speak.

Here's where I'm taking issue. I don't think you're a xenophobe, but most of what you've written in that quote is the same incorrect mentality as what's behind this guy's campaign video. The "border jumpers" aren't who this proposed legislation effects, as they aren't even eligible to apply for a license in the first place. Granted, as you've pointed out, some DMV employees may illegally sell or otherwise provide non-eligible applicants with licenses, but that removes the test from the equation altogether, which even further removes any relevance the proposed legislation may have actually had. I feel like the more we discuss this, the more ridiculous/pointless the proposed legislation seems to be.

We're also not taking into account that nobody learns a language overnight. **IF** (it's a big if) someone can read our street signs, is qualified to drive, AND is taking English courses but has not yet finished learning English, should we be discriminating against them?

I think part of the problem is that when these topics come up we all start thinking specifically about southern border jumpers, when in reality it effects ALL KINDS of legal immigrants and temporary residents: Koreans, Japanese, Russian, Indian, Nigerian, etc etc etc. They literally can't "hop borders" because they aren't coming from bordering countries.

And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair. So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?

Respectfully, I feel like that's equivocating. Where the hell did the topic of Amnesty come from? What are we talking about here? I'm not going to address those points because I feel like it's another discussion for another thread.

And I'm not trying water down any issues, I'm speaking about *the* issue at hand. You all see it as xenophobia. As Eeaolian pointed out, it's playing to an audience. And you're right E, the people this ad targets *already* feel the way they do. This *isn't* going to change anyone's minds and isn't much of a campaign platform, I don't think it's meant to be. And I don't see how a simple DMV test being provided in English is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to race or immigration relations. I'm well aware that nothing happens in a vacuum. That's a delightfully insightful thought. I just don't see this one little ad, suddenly causing an uprising or race-war. Nor do I think it's that big of a rallying cry for the "they took err' jobsssss!" crowd. As with just about everything in life, it's subject to interpretation.

The word racist also gets tossed around here like it's going out of style. People really need to revisit the definition and understand that not *every* thing you disagree with is automatically a *racist* statement. Nor is talking about immigration solely about xenophobes vs. non-xenophobes. Nor is disliking Obama or his policies an automatic qualifier for racist tendencies.

More or less, we agree on these points. Where I take slight exception is in regards to 'disliking Obama or his policies': I think most of us who have used the word racist in relation to anti-Obama propaganda have been referencing not any gripes with his actual policies (which, by the way, seem to be relatively rare) but with people saying he's a 'secret Muslim' or 'wasn't born in America', etc etc. If not racist, such sentiments are certainly bigoted, and I don't think you could reasonably disagree with me on that. I think I've seen quite a few threads already where most of us who you identify as being 'liberal' are happy have any reasonable policy debates, but usually political debates have a tendency to forgo policy in favor of hot-button social issues. (Not pointing a finger at you on that score; just the populous in general.)

 

[Tones]

i heard you get a free gun and a beer if you vote for him

 

[bostjan]

I think if the guy is about to discover the cure for AIDS or cancer, and doesn't speak a word of english, he should have a chaperone and a bodyguard, not be driving himself around.

 

[mmr007]

More fun, blatant Racism from a current Republican nominee:

Rachel Maddow Show

By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.

Jim RUSSELL? Doubt it...more like Jim Himmler...probably changed his last name after his grandfather commited suicide after the allies captured him

did you know there is more variation in DNA between two non related white people than between non related white and black people?

 

[orb451]

Syn, rather than quote your response (which I appreciate by the way), I'll just say that the amnesty thing comes up (to me at least) because we're talking about immigrants. Regardless of where they're from, if they're coming here, I feel like they should learn the language and amnesty for *illegal* immigrants is part of the immigration equation as a whole.

That said, I think we have some common ground on some of the points above. I agree, that if a person is here, driving on our roads, they should be able to read the signs. And yeah I'd actually be cool with it if they were in the *process* of learning English and had passed some *bare* minimum comprehension tests before getting to the license test.

Next, regarding the immigrant example from countries *other* than South of our borders, I think most student and H1B Visas are explicitly granted to skilled labor or for "white collar" jobs. Now maybe it's just a positive stereotype, but I'd think anyone granted an H1B or here in the US to do some kind of professional work would be able to speak, read and write English and could probably hand me my own ass with respect to spelling and grammatical proficiency. Point is, if he's here to cure AIDS, and he's *that* smart, I doubt he/she would not be familiar with English, either spoken or written. Maybe he speaks like Borat, but I think he could 'get er' done'. And no, honestly I don't want *anyone* on our roads that doesn't understand what the signs mean. Whether it's to cure AIDS or invent a better lightbulb, he's a danger to himself and others if he doesn't understand what's going on. And would do us all better ALIVE than DEAD or embroiled in some kind of traffic accident litigation. So if that means he gets a private driver and 24/7 security, so be it. But yeah, that's taking the example too far into fantasy land, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying.

For those seeking asylum though, that's a tricky situation. As are the rest of poor and unskilled (professionally/white-collar-wise) workers. And I'd agree that learning the language for those folks *is* an ongoing and grueling process, or at least it can be. However, I still feel like we've made a LOT of effort at the state and federal levels to accommodate these folks. And I feel like what we've done is just made it easier for them to continue speaking their own language whilst ignoring what is arguably, ours. Them learning English is a win-win for them *and* us. And I don't feel like it's xenophobic at face value to want or expect them to learn English. And I don't expect them to become writers and English professors, nor do I care what they do amongst family, friends or in their homes with respect to language and customs. I only care about if/when they come to the government (state or federal) to exercise rights or privileges.

 

[groph]

Jim RUSSELL? Doubt it...more like Jim Himmler...probably changed his last name after his grandfather commited suicide after the allies captured him

did you know there is more variation in DNA between two non related white people than between non related white and black people?

No, but what's your point?

 

[Scar Symmetry]

Jesus Christ guys, chill the fuck out