Thoughts on the situation in Syria?

[TheDeathOfMusic]

American logic:

"People are dying! What do we do?!"
"KILL MORE OF THEM"

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

Why must the USA be the hammer for every fvcking thing that happens in the world? I think what happened is terrible, the people killed by the gas, but we are so fvcked up right now how can we keep policing the world? The old adage that you can't help others until you help yourself keeps coming to mind. This can not keep going on this way....can it? I want justice and all that shit but for fvcks sake man....this country is in the shitter at the moment... when do we "fix" ourselves? Jesus it just keeps turning doesn't it!

This is just fvcking ridiculous!!! The human life has 0 value to so many people it is sickening.

Just imagine... when the culling begins, the ....s that don't value life are probably going to be the only ones left! Lovely thought, isn't it?

 

[vansinn]

I think when Vansinn highlighted General Rasmussen's statements of 'evidence' shows why the world can't get involved in Syria just yet. A lot of people, both within and outside Syria, are presenting all kinds of evidence to indict one of the two sides. This either means that one side is doing a great job of deceiving us, and falsifying evidence, or both sides can be held accountable for atrocities. Either way, there's no truly clear-cut side to take, unless enough people with enough firepower went in and threatened to fight both sides unless they sat down and negotiated peacefully. And the chances of that happening are...?

Exactly.
To illustrate the situation pertaining valid documentation and evidence, have a look at: Craig Murray » Blog Archive » The Troodos Conundrum
It's about the ability to intercept communications.
Do read the discussion below; some very valid points are made in various directions.

And this: Yes, the Syrian Rebels DO Have Access to Chemical Weapons | Global Research

At a first glance, you may say sheez, this stuff is already spreading every where; sure (Tomahawks) action is needed..
But read the latter part "The above, of course, is simply speculation. More important is actual evidence of possession and use."

Note in the text how many seemingly high-ranking people says they've seen or witnessed this or that - but there are no evidence to their claims.
Anyone can say such things, which of course doesn't mean it cannot be true, more that without factual evidence, it all remains.. speculation and/or lobbying pressure.

If we assume the referred depots really are left unattended and are being looted, starting to throw Tomahawks will likely make the situation even worse.
The various so-called rebel and freedom fighter factions, trained, funded and weaponized by whichever exact outside groupings, cannot exactly be said to be professionals, and absolutely do not have the unified command structure of, say, western forces.

Moreover, it's been referred in many places that may in those rebel factions have stated things like "when we're done with the west's agenda, we have a big score to settle with Israel, and then the Sauds and UAE."

Does anyone think everyone among those factions will all smile happily to the western forces, as in "we'll fight with you side-by-side, bro"?
Could very well be that many will take their supplied/looted arms and drift into hiding, for a different agenda later on.

Several politicians and high ranking military from both the US and UK have repeatedly said "we don't know who it is we're arming."

Further, until some, say, 15 or years or so ago, Islam wasn't too diversified.
What has happened from all of this intervention is that a whole array of Islamic fractions has been created.

Before Iraq, a specialist in the Middle East in serious language warned against the then impending campaign, saying "don't do it, you simply do not understand this region, their culture, their ways of thinking."
Before Afghanistan, the Soviet general who led their likewise fained attempt, said "don't do it, you cannot win a war in this country."

And now look at how chaotic, vicious, liquid and fractured this region has become.

Of course, the opium production in Afghanistan has risen almost 5000%, and as everyone knows, there's big money into heroin..

 

[Overtone]

Did a couple hours of heavy researching on the history of Syria, the events leading up to the war, the course of the war, the belligerents, and finally the allegations of chemical warfare and civilian massacre.

I did my best to try to find out where the information is coming from and finding credible sources. Was very hard to do the latter.


"Who started it" is a complex question, I think more complex than some people realize. Based on who I've talked to (in the US) about this, there's a notion that the Syrian rebels are innocent in all of this and that the Syrian government is 'evil.'
Well, now that the country is in a state of civil war, it's really unfair to say that the Syrian government is the evil one, seeing as though both sides are launching offensives, [inadvertently] killing civilians, and ultimately refusing to end fighting despite all the discussion and proposition of cease-fires etc.
I think you gotta remember that this is civil war and not 'big bad Assad picking on protesters' anymore, and that the rules in war are different. Both sides are responsible for the killing of civilians, but that's what happens in a war. Neither side is trying to outright murder civilians at this point.
The attitude is probably different in other parts of the world, but that's my take on the attitude I picked up from other people in my area.

As for the chemical weapons and massacres and alleged evidence that side A or B used them, it's really difficult to say who did what.
Every US, French, or British study of the chemical warfare says the Syrian Army did it, but, naturally, every Russian study says the FSA and/or its allies are responsible. Granted, the pro-rebel side has done many more studies, from what I understand, for whatever it's worth.
Same goes for the civilian massacres, namely the events that took place in Houla.
The UN wanted to do studies, many of which were refused by the Syrian government. I don't know all to much about the studies that were allowed aside from the fact that no conclusion has yet been reached.
If you ask me I think the Syrian government is guilty of using chemical weapons, seeing as though more credible evidence says so (eye-witness, etc), and that their military hasn't hesitated to use other banned and condemned forms of weaponry against the rebels before.
That being said, I think it's likely that some of the anti-Assad regimes (namely the Al-Nusra Front, given their history) are guilty of using chemical and/or biological weapons as well.

I'm a little surprised the conflict hasn't escalated internationally sooner, to be honest.
Turkey has been doing so much for the rebels already. It's really odd to think that the Syrian government hasn't retaliated all that much given what Turkey has been doing for and providing the FSA and its allies.

As for the US and France, I think any reason that the they give for getting involved in the conflict is nonsense, and it's not the west's place to get involved in the conflict.


On another note, as a history major whose focus is partially military conflicts and diplomacy, this conflict is extremely interesting and I think others should really read up on the Syrian history and events leading up to the war.
I found the Kurds involvement particularly interesting.

I commend you for taking time to look into this but I think that even 2 very focused hours of research by someone who is knowledgable about conflict can miss some important info. There is a ruthlessness in the Syrian government's response to dissidence that goes a long way back. For decades it was known that there are spies everywhere and that anybody who is outspoken against the government could end up detained secretly and indefinitely. I know people personally who left Syria and were still afraid that there might be reprisals against them for simply discussing that very topic. The army is extremely loyal to the regime and to this ideology, to the point where murder of a dissident is a de facto course of action. There have been multiple civilian massacres by the army since the start of the war, including in recent events. I have a close friend who lost 3 cousins a few months back when the army executed all the men in a village that was considered sympathetic to the revolution. These guys were not involved in any way... it was enough that they were men and that they lived in the wrong place. There have been mass rapes and mass killings galore since it started. At some point you can no longer make the argument that any person must be viewed as a possible threat and dealt with, and we are well past that point. I agree that various rebel factions have committed their own atrocities, I just think that you haven't reached anywhere close to the heart of it if you think that the regime's actions are not evil and that nobody is intentionally killing civilians.

 

[Jakke]

well, this is interesting turn of events if it is true: » Rebels Admit Responsibility for Chemical Weapons Attack Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Well... There's your problem right there. To be honest, if infowars claims something, I'm more inclined to believe the complete opposite.

Seriously, .... Alex Jones.


I think the discussion for the US mainly is going to be if the possibility of saving Syrian lives right now is worth a possible prolonged intervention with future casualities instead. I don't think there's an answer that is objectively better than the other one right now, but I suspect that the global political scene will change quite rapidly again, so an assessment made with today's information might be terribly outdated pretty soon.

 

[Overtone]

One thing that's odd is that the conversation is so focused on collateral damage in Syria and the US budget concerns that it overlooks the explicit threat of attacks on Israel and involvement Iran and potentially Russia in the conflict. That would probably be the most precarious situation since the Nuclear Crisis.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/o...t-questions-on-syria.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1&

 

[Captain_Awesome]

Although I have many thoughts on the situation, which perhaps I'll go into another time, right now I'd like to address the current media storm about the 110,000 people now dead in Syria as a direct result of the civil war.

For example, I was watching a 'free speech' programme last night (one where any unpopular opinion is drowned out) and the presenter kept referring to the 100,000 dead at the hands of a ruthless dictator with the count still rising and this is a figure that has been repeatedly quoted in the British newspapers and on the BBC. I wouldn't say that I'm pro-Assad but press bias (in respect to other situations) has to end.

Almost 50,000 of those dead in the conflict are members of the SAA or are pro-Assad militia (Hezbollah), a further 21,000 + are FSA - or those with shadowy motives who would fight under the banner of the freedom only to suit their own ends. This leaves a further 30,000 - 40,000 civilians dead through the conflict (though it could be more). The more interesting statistic which the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights hasn't confirmed as far I'm aware, is what are the figures for deaths at the hands of the regime and at the hands of the rebels. I've seen some footage of regime atrocities, most recently that of the incendiary bombing of a school but I've also seen plenty offootage of rebel soldiers firing blindly into civilian areas with mortars and home-made cannons.

This isn't a one sided war and it should be reported with more fairness regardless of how evil Assad may or may not be.

 

[riffer_madness]

Total imbecilic human morons at the top that need to GO.

 

[asfeir]

What someone here said is spot on, we have to look at the biggest picture: the plan is to divide the region into smaller more homogenous countries according to religion. Syria is 80% sunni and the rest are alaoui(close to shiites) and christians. In my country Lebanon, we are 30% christians and around 30/30 shiites and sunni. It seems like the new Islam is not accepting cohabitation and/or the idea of being ruled/governed by someone from another religion. No idea what's next but in my opinion the map isnt staying the same in the Middle-East..

 

[Captain_Awesome]

Edit: I can't see the videos, did I do bad? This is a new problem to me. Should I delete the links seeing as the post is just taking up a load of room?

Just a few videos from this morning (nothing graphic)

[liveleak]01a_1378440541[/liveleak]
[liveleak]3d1_1378399792[/liveleak]

I find this final video interesting in conjunction with other footage from the rebels in Syria which would suggest that they have the means to not only create Sarin but also deliver it. I think it's unlikely that the FSA or a terrorist group committed the large scale gas attack in August, however the US government shouldn't claim that it's impossible for them to have used chemical weapons at any point in this war or indeed use any the future when there is evidence to suggest otherwise. My only issue with this video is authenticity. It seems authentic enough but it could very easily have been staged by pro-Assad supporters.

[liveleak]056_1378422619[/liveleak]

 

[hairychris]

^ That's one of the problems. The Russians reckon that the chemicals used + delivery method are not the same as the Syrian army. In other words right now we don't know who's weapons they were. Government? False flag? An accident?

And, whatever the case is, massive hypocrisy from the US govt which is business as usual. FWIW I think that the British govt are just as bad, historically, and our leaders also want to get in with the kicking but this was voted down because I have a feeling that some MPs were afraid for their jobs when the next election rolls by.

And what the .... is Kissinger on about? Nope, the UK isn't going to kiss US arse this time, not after what happened in Iraq. He can go and .... himself, anyway.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

the US government shouldn't claim that it's impossible for them to have used chemical weapons at any point in this war or indeed use any the future

Is the US claiming that? I know they're claiming the Syrian military used them, but I hadn't read that they're claiming it's impossible for the rebels to have used them. To be fair, though, I'm not really keeping very strict tabs on this whole mess.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

^ That's one of the problems. The Russians reckon that the chemicals used + delivery method are not the same as the Syrian army. In other words right now we don't know who's weapons they were. Government? False flag? An accident?

And, whatever the case is, massive hypocrisy from the US govt which is business as usual. FWIW I think that the British govt are just as bad, historically, and our leaders also want to get in with the kicking but this was voted down because I have a feeling that some MPs were afraid for their jobs when the next election rolls by.

And what the .... is Kissinger on about? Nope, the UK isn't going to kiss US arse this time, not after what happened in Iraq. He can go and .... himself, anyway.

Eh, The British are worse in that regard. Where do you think American's learned it from?


And Kissinger is a fat .... who thinks he's still important when he and the other old, fat elitist ....s go to Bilderberg meetings every year to discuss foreign policy.

 

[TheDeathOfMusic]

Edit: Post screwed up and I don't know how to delete :blush:

 

[vansinn]

While we're awaiting either the UN investigation report or the R2P/R2A syntax..

Here's a rundown of a year worth of incidences, media and speculations by Syrian Girl:




Info about claimed preparations to war, by Duff Gordon, a former Nam vet:
PressTV - US deployed nuke force before Syria crisis

I have no way of commenting on this, other than highly disturbing..

 

[bluediamond]

Although I have many thoughts on the situation, which perhaps I'll go into another time, right now I'd like to address the current media storm about the 110,000 people now dead in Syria as a direct result of the civil war.

For example, I was watching a 'free speech' programme last night (one where any unpopular opinion is drowned out) and the presenter kept referring to the 100,000 dead at the hands of a ruthless dictator with the count still rising and this is a figure that has been repeatedly quoted in the British newspapers and on the BBC. I wouldn't say that I'm pro-Assad but press bias (in respect to other situations) has to end.

Almost 50,000 of those dead in the conflict are members of the SAA or are pro-Assad militia (Hezbollah), a further 21,000 + are FSA - or those with shadowy motives who would fight under the banner of the freedom only to suit their own ends. This leaves a further 30,000 - 40,000 civilians dead through the conflict (though it could be more). The more interesting statistic which the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights hasn't confirmed as far I'm aware, is what are the figures for deaths at the hands of the regime and at the hands of the rebels. I've seen some footage of regime atrocities, most recently that of the incendiary bombing of a school but I've also seen plenty offootage of rebel soldiers firing blindly into civilian areas with mortars and home-made cannons.

This isn't a one sided war and it should be reported with more fairness regardless of how evil Assad may or may not be.

Bravo, mate!

 

[Overtone]

A friend just linked me to a very disturbing page (actually, he posted it on fb). I won't post the link but you can google "10 things worse than eating a dead man's heart." it is VERY nsfw and graphic, and very upsetting. It makes me cry when i think that people are doing these kinds of things to one another. it brings shame on the entire human race.

 

[RevDrucifer]

A friend just linked me to a very disturbing page (actually, he posted it on fb). I won't post the link but you can google "10 things worse than eating a dead man's heart." it is VERY nsfw and graphic, and very upsetting. It makes me cry when i think that people are doing these kinds of things to one another. it brings shame on the entire human race.

Yeah, really wish I didn't look that up. I'm feeling more sick now than I did after Obama's speech tonight.....and I know that's contradicting, but I don't know what to believe anymore.

It's savage VS. savage over there. Which one is worse than the other? From the videos I've seen, evil incarnate exists on both sides of that ....ed up situation. Which murderer is less guilty?

Obama is all too anxious to join in on the bloodbath.

What REALLY set me off tonight was when he had the balls to say "We do not dismiss threats."....ARE YOU ....ING KIDDING ME?!?!?!

You're now saying that US Intelligence had ZERO previous knowledge on the attacks of Pearl Harbor OR 9-11?! Oh....he must have meant threats from other countries, not the ones our government did to our own people.

It was very obvious after the Marathon Bombing that confusion amongst the masses is the important thing. When the people can't make a decision because there's so much misinformation being spread at lightning speed, we spend more time bickering over the information we have than doing anything else.

I'm honestly looking into another country to live in. I'm highly considering leaving any and all 1st world luxuries behind because it's not worth this shit. From a young age, I lived in cars, tents, went without food and didn't know when I'd eat again...and as a kid, I was happy more often than not. I do not trust what our administration has been doing and is carrying on with. Yeah, I'm a bit of a conspiracy guy, but all that shit will vanish from my life if I got the .... out of here, found a country with no conflict, became entirely self sufficient, no internet, no TV, no eating at restaurants...it's all starting to seem more appealing by the day.

Where's the island from Lost and anyone who's comin' with me?

 

[TRENCHLORD]

I'm honestly looking into another country to live in.

You're in southern Florida man, you are already in another country .

Seriously though, you are right, it's all screwed up.
If we were going to use this as an excuse to attack our enemy, why would we want to have this drawn out process in which we publically debate and collectively decide before acting?
I still think we should stay out of it, but if we are going to get involved then Obama should send a message by playing a dirty bluff.

He should go on live and say we have decided not to act at this time, but we send our last warning and demand to the dude to not use these tactics again or we will strike without warning.
Then, we should wait a couple weeks and just strike without warning anyways , in a more serious way than anyone anticipated.

If we are always so predictable we'll be manipulated and taken advantage of, and nothing is worse than a fearless enemy.