Triple Rectifier tone and gain problem

[cardinal]

I use a full-power Triple into a 4x12, and it sounds great IMHO at low volumes too. No attenuators. Just don't turn up the volume very high.

And I can't imagine running the gain maxed in Modern mode, let alone adding a boost on top of it. That would be an unbelievable amount of preamp gain. Something with your setup is off for sure, or we have very different preferences for tone.

 

[viesczy]

I have a Road King II (120 watts) and she has PLENTY of thump on just 4 6L6s and adding the 2 EL34s even more so with the add'l volume. A few folks have pointed out that your attenuator set up is most likely the culprit. I run a THD Hotplate with some of my heads (Laney VH100 especially) as they NEED the volume to sound amazing, but from whispers to WWIII levels, my Road King II thumps. I can't imagine a Triple Rec not doing anything other.

Good luck!

Derek

 

[Stench of Necropsy]

No, I wasn't using any attenuators. I apologize if didn't explain myself well enough.
But I am aware that attenuators alter the tone. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm starting to think that possibly the power tubes were weak. I'll explain. They're stock Mesa that came with the amp and are coded 'Red'. The color thing is, according to Mesa, to sort of further narrow the tube matching process and make them more similar to each other. Once matched, they are further matched a second time and assigned a color code. I assume it's for reliability.

Now, I've read comments on various sites about these different color codes having different gain properties but, as far as I know, Mesa rejects that notion. Still, I found this color code thing where e.g. Yellow code gives a soft sound and Green gives an aggressive sound, in the item description for Mesa tubes on the Thömann site. That online store is the largest in Europe.

Oh... I almost forgot! As one of you pointed out, I've got an active EMG-81, I'm using a Maxon OD808 pedal and that should give me plenty of gain as it is. I shouldn't need to turn up the gain so much on the preamp.
I was overdoing it. The active pickups and boost pedal make the preamp tubes work harder, right? And by turning up the gain all the way... that's just stupid.

I had read the warning in the Mesa manual about not turning up the gain all the way up except when really needing it and for a short time only. But I had read about Rob Barrett (Cannibal Corpse)'s settings and, apparently, he has his gain all the way up and adds a Metal Zone (now a Maxon) on top of it! So I thought I could do the same! So either that info was false or else these big band guitarists can afford to change tubes... or even amps more often than I can $$$$

Given to Fly: That comment about the Triple Rec. being ideal for Jazz players playing clean is so funny and true

 

[Stench of Necropsy]

So I've been re-considering whether it's worth it for me, personally, to use my Maxon OD808 or just plug straight into the amp.

Maybe because I use active EMG 81 (b) and EMG 85 (n) that, when used in combination with the Maxon, increase the hiss and noise from the amp since the active pickups are high output pickups already.

So, I think passives may be the way to go for me. And maybe I could try the Maxon with passives. That sounds like a more balanced setup as opposed to actives + boost. It sure overdrives the preamp tubes but increases the noise and hiss. If you can achieve saturation (distortion) with the amp alone, then why add extra gear if it's going to add hiss and noise?

I'll also try the Maxon without the power supply (battery-power instead). It sounds silly but you never know. Ok, I hope to hear your opinions about this as I value them.

Maybe it would be worth starting a thread about this "Tube Screamer yay or nay" debate Thanks!

 

[mongey]

re read your post. Do you mean hiss while Playing or in between notes ?

 

[TRENCHLORD]

String tension also makes a big difference on "perceived gain" and whether or not a specific amp has enough juice without a tube-screamer.
Generally speaking, the tighter the string tension is the more clean and clear the tone, and conversely the looser (to a point of course) the tension the more saturated it will sound.

The few times I've plugged in a factory stock guitar (9-42 at E) to a rectifier head I'm always shocked at how gainy it seems when compared to my normal setup.

 

[KailM]

So I've been re-considering whether it's worth it for me, personally, to use my Maxon OD808 or just plug straight into the amp.

Maybe because I use active EMG 81 (b) and EMG 85 (n) that, when used in combination with the Maxon, increase the hiss and noise from the amp since the active pickups are high output pickups already.

So, I think passives may be the way to go for me. And maybe I could try the Maxon with passives. That sounds like a more balanced setup as opposed to actives + boost. It sure overdrives the preamp tubes but increases the noise and hiss. If you can achieve saturation (distortion) with the amp alone, then why add extra gear if it's going to add hiss and noise?

I'll also try the Maxon without the power supply (battery-power instead). It sounds silly but you never know. Ok, I hope to hear your opinions about this as I value them.

Maybe it would be worth starting a thread about this "Tube Screamer yay or nay" debate Thanks!

First off, it's okay to use active pups with a TS into a high-gain amp ---*but your preamp gain shouldn't be anywhere NEAR maxed. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on Rectifiers, but I've played enough of them. Even without a boost, they should not need their gain above "6" or "7" to achieve loads of saturation (I love me a good thick, saturated tone myself). For an example (I know, mine is a different amp) here's what I do with my 6505+: I have a guitar with Blackouts, and I also run a boost (either my TS-9 or MXR M77). With the Blackouts and boost pedals, the preamp barely needs any gain. At "moderate" volumes, I run my gain on 3-3.5/10. The louder I go from there, I can turn the preamp gain down even more. I have gone as low as "2" on the gain dial and still achieved enough gain for death/black metal (when the volume is at concert levels, lol). It actually sounds more brutal with the gain turned down a bit once it's that loud -- as weird as that may seem. But I realize my amp probably has a bit more gain on tap than a rectifier to begin with. Personally, I would not play a Rectifier without a boost of some sort, to tighten things up. It doesn't matter what pickups you have. The boost isn't for more gain necessarily -- it is to tighten-up the response and cut some of the bass that that amp should have in abundance (more on that later). If anything, the boost pedal should help you get your ideal tone at a lower volume.

Also, it really is an amp that sounds better and better the louder it's cranked. I'm not so sure an attenuator would do much for you either. It is a high gain amp and for metal, you're not getting your ideal tone from power tube distortion -- it's all coming from the preamp. You should be able to get a great tone as soon as the speakers are pushed hard enough to start moving some air -- which isn't necessarily that loud, but a bit beyond typical "bedroom" volumes.

Finally, when you say there's a lack of low end, I strongly suspect you need new power tubes, not preamp tubes. Preamp tubes can take a lot of abuse, and usually last a lot longer than power tubes. Even if your amp was new when you bought it, chances are, your power tubes are beyond their ideal performance. I replace the power tubes on my 6505+ about every year and a half. Every time I do, it's like the amp has received a healthy shot of testosterone. Way more low end thump -- as well as increased clarity and grind throughout all the other frequency ranges. I would also recommend changing your phase-inverter tube with your power tubes.

As for tube brands, JJs have never steered me wrong. I wouldn't pay for Mesa tubes, as they are just rebranded and marked up in price for the Mesa name. Good luck, and I hope that helps!

 

[dunno]

Definetely turn your effects loop on....if you play triple rectifier at low volumes you want to have that extra control over volume. Having the loop off is nice if you crank the shit out of that amp, for anything else leave the loop on. Also there are 2 knobs in the back, where you switch the channels and loop settings. I learned that they help a little to get better distrtion sounds at low volumes if you lower them. I have them below half and have no problem with great tone when cranked and even with volume at 9 oclock.
These 2:

After that set your channel volume, it makes quite an impact too. I like to keep it around 10-11 oclock....But that`s personal preference, anything above 9 should give you great sounds.
Sure this thing absolutely kills when it`s cranked and when you play with the whole band, that`s when I get best sounds, but there is no reason it shouldn`t sound good even at really low volumes. You just have to turn the loop on. That`s the only important trick.
And about the tubescreamer, I love using one. Even with my rg2228 which has emgs I like the tone better with tubescreamer on. Also 2nd channel on modern setting rules

 

[Stench of Necropsy]

mongey: Thanks for the reply. I solved the issue of hissing and crackling. I feel so stupid... it was the battery for the EMGs that needed to be changed. Totally forgot about that. I assumed it would last longer.

TRENCHLORD: Yeah, that's true. I personally go for 'medium tension' gauges. I try to aim for a medium attack and sustain, you know. What about you?

KailM: Thanks! I found out my EMG's battery was flat... lol That's what was making my amp hiss and crackle and I think why the sound in general was weak.
Since changing the battery, I experimented a bit with different cabinets. As you probably know, the Mesa Rectifier series makes the 'Standard' cabs (with basically a smiley face EQ curve) and a 'Traditional' cab (with a frown face EQ curve).
Right now I seem to have found a great tone with the Vintage gain setting which I can describe as mid-rangey and smooth distortion (not harsh like the Modern gain one) and using the Standard cab (the one with the smiley face EQ curve).
Like I said, it sounds pretty good! And I'll stick to using my Maxon OD808. Ok, all kinds of pedals add a bit of hiss to the tone but I think the tone benefits of a TS type pedal are worth that tiny hiss they add.

Yes, I believe you when you say it sounds more brutal with the gain turned down because you get more attack Increasing gain softens the attack

dunno: Thanks so much! What you said about the loop on vs. off is very interesting! Some say that since turning the loop off makes the signal path shorter and simpler, that gives better tone. I had tried this myself and have heard a difference.
But, currently, the loop is on so that I can turn up the master volume about 5/10 (to get the power tubes working) and then control the volume through the channel volume.
But I will definitely try what you recommended, thanks! I feel I am getting closer to mastering my amp and getting a good tone
Yes, TS pedals improve the tone a lot Maybe they add a little noise but all pedals do that